Chain Length vs Weight - How much is enough?

[StoneCrab]

I have a relatively small chain locker with only a hawse pipe for access. The anchor sits on a bow sprit. The end of the 100' chain has a short line attached to it which is tied off inside of the vberth accessible locker.

I routinely let out all the chain. While I carry a spool of line for anchoring, attaching it is always a concern since it does involve disconnecting the chain from its tiedown and then reconnecting it to the spool on deck. Not something that I like to do in a blow, but I can't leave the spool attached the way it is set up now.

Not having a proper anchor locker, I also don't have a convenient way to recapture and store the anchor rode. There is no locker to flake it into.

I am considering buying new and more chain. I am interested in opinions on how to sort this out. I have some concerns about adding several hundred pounds to the bow.

My gypsie is sized for 5/16 HT. The boat is 19,000 lbs at 38 feet.

All chain vs chain and rode?
How chain much is enough?
Is Stainless Steel worth it?
What is a good price for chain? (what brands to trust vs stay away from)

[motion30]

My opinion is all chain. Depending on the depth you typically anchor in will determine how much you actually need. Here in South Florida, Chinese chain can be had for around $3 a foot. Good American made chain is closer to $5 a foot I am on my second round of Arcco chain. Which is American-made but I am not satisfied with the life of galvanizing.

[Montanan]

How deep of anchorages do you moor? You only need as much scope of rode to hang firmly, so if you only anchor in shallow waters then you only need comparatively short lengths of rode. Determine your deepest anchorage and then determine your scope ratio and length accordingly.

Some boaters deploy what I would consider excessive amounts of rode, e.g., greater than 7:1 ratio which extra length adds very, very little additional reduction in pull angle and thus very little additional holding capabilities. As a general rule, it is better to size up on the anchor size then to size up on rode ratio beyond 7:1.

Also utilizing long nylon bridles will provide for stretch in your rode which chain rode does not yield. If one connects their twinned nylon bridles to the mid-ship cleats or to aft cleats instead of the bow cleats then one gains considerable extra length of stretchable bridling which added stretch greatly reduces the peak loading that occurs on the anchor and rode when your boat pitches and yaws during adverse anchoring conditions. It is the peak loading that tends to upset your anchor so reducing the peak with extensive use of nylon in the form of long bridles or rode connected to chain is of key benefit.

One can significantly reduce the weight and volume of your chain rode if you select high tensile chain. This allows for not exceeding the capacity of your chain locker and avails the opportunity to carry significantly greater length of chain rode with the same amount of weight stored on the bow.

Sorry can't give you specific guidance as to the recommended lengths because it greatly depends on where you intend to anchor. Note that nylon rode introduces much greater stretching such that a bridle does not need to be deployed but one has to give consideration of what your nylon rode may encounter on the bottom, e.g. sharp coral which could cut the rode.

[Sailmonkey]

Is your boat tolerant of weight in the bow?

We’ve got 225’ of chain and another 200’ of rhode in the bow of a 32’ “chunky” boat. I’ve pulled out all of the rhode (chain and line) for some regattas, and haven’t noticed an appreciable difference in handling or overall speed.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by StoneCrab

I have a relatively small chain locker with only a hawse pipe for access. The anchor sits on a bow sprit. The end of the 100' chain has a short line attached to it which is tied off inside of the vberth accessible locker.

I routinely let out all the chain. While I carry a spool of line for anchoring, attaching it is always a concern since it does involve disconnecting the chain from its tiedown and then reconnecting it to the spool on deck. Not something that I like to do in a blow, but I can't leave the spool attached the way it is set up now.

Not having a proper anchor locker, I also don't have a convenient way to recapture and store the anchor rode. There is no locker to flake it into.

I am considering buying new and more chain. I am interested in opinions on how to sort this out. I have some concerns about adding several hundred pounds to the bow.

My gypsie is sized for 5/16 HT. The boat is 19,000 lbs at 38 feet.

All chain vs chain and rode?
How chain much is enough?
Is Stainless Steel worth it?
What is a good price for chain? (what brands to trust vs stay away from)

All chain vs chain and rode? We use all chain because we often have to anchor where rocks or coral could cut a rope rode, plus the chain aids holding.

How chain much is enough?How do you define "enough"? We carry 300ft, we've only used it a few times, if the depth has been over 65'. We once or twice anchored in 95', on a 3 to 1 scope.
Is Stainless Steel worth it?not in my opinion

It's tough when you have limited space for your chain and rode storage. Luckily we do not have that issue.

On our 43' boat we carry 300' of 5/16 HT. We've had this chain since 1993. We've had it re-galvanized twice. This amount seems sufficient. Less would concern me. We have 300' of rope rode, which we never use. Weight in the bow is a concern if thinking about going to a heavier chain.

Think about where you are anchoring, depth, type of bottom.

With your short chain maybe consider using a kellet.

[StoneCrab]

I've cruised the Great Lakes and the Eastern seaboard but would like to venture further next year. My boat has a full length keel with a "traditional" hull shape. It is not a fast boat and typically has the molded waterline about 2 inches below the water in the stern. It does have a lot of fuel and water capacity, which is the greatest source of weight.

I have a 60lb Bruce and 45lb CQR anchor on the bow sprit. I don't have a sense of what I should limit the chain weight to. It is a smaller chain locker, so I may be dimensionally limited.

I haven't been impressed with the plow as it has dragged on a few occasions and doesn't set worth a darn in weeds. I'm thinking of replacing it with a Mantus M2. I want to keep the thread on chain/rode solutions though, since that area needs to be addressed.

On my trips, I'd say the average water depth at anchor has been 15 to 20 feet, although I've had to do 30' at times.

The times that I've extensively dragged anchor has been in muddy bottoms with seaweed and surprisingly twice in a sand bottom with a CQR/Plow anchor. The last time, it was a good blow, and the plow made a very long furrow during the short time that I was in the head. It was during the day and I was able to reset in a different area of the bay, but I did almost drift down onto another boat before getting the engine started. The anchor was set in very shallow water and the hull was sitting in deeper water. I don't think more chain would have helped in that case since the pull was practically horizontal and the plow was plowing.

I appreciate Montanan's points about shock loading and never thought of rigging a bridle further back on the boat.

If I am going to have any peace of mind, I need to work out a better system than what I have. Your suggestions and shared experiences are appreciated.

[Marathon1150]

We have 200' of 3/8" chain plus 300' of 5/8" 8-plait rope. Up until recently we have never needed to use all of the chain even anchoring at 5:1 because the water depth did not require it. However, we are now in the South Pacific where anchorages are typically in the 50-60' range and we need to use the rope. The splice does not go through the gypsy as smoothly as I would like so we are looking at doing something like you are doing - keeping the chain separate from the rope and attaching/detaching the two parts of the rode when anchoring. It sounds and looks tricky.

We chose 3/8" chain even though our boat is lighter than yours (similar length) because of the additional weight which keeps more chain on the bottom and has a greater dampening effect in a rough anchorage. If I were doing it again, I would buy 5/16" G40 but up the length to 300' in order to reduce the need for the rope without increasing the weight at the front of the boat.

To be clear, I think that all chain is better than chain/rope for an anchor rode under most conditions.

I would not buy stainless chain - it has its own issues and is not worth the investment. As an engineering friend likes to say - stainless - stains less, breaks sooner.

Acco used to be a good brand and we have been using our chain for about 12 years with no signs of needing re-galvanizing. I have recently read that newer Acco is not as good. At the moment, Titan seems to be an up and comer. It is made in China for a Canadian company that also makes Rocna and Vulcan anchors. Our Rocna was made in Canada but I believe that newer Rocna's are made in China. If quality control is good, Chinese made goods are no different than goods made in North America, Europe, etc.


Good luck.

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by StoneCrab

I've cruised the Great Lakes and the Eastern seaboard but would like to venture further next year. My boat has a full length keel with a "traditional" hull shape. It is not a fast boat and typically has the molded waterline about 2 inches below the water in the stern. It does have a lot of fuel and water capacity, which is the greatest source of weight.

I have a 60lb Bruce and 45lb CQR anchor on the bow sprit. I don't have a sense of what I should limit the chain weight to. It is a smaller chain locker, so I may be dimensionally limited.

I haven't been impressed with the plow as it has dragged on a few occasions and doesn't set worth a darn in weeds. I'm thinking of replacing it with a Mantus M2. I want to keep the thread on chain/rode solutions though, since that area needs to be addressed.

On my trips, I'd say the average water depth at anchor has been 15 to 20 feet, although I've had to do 30' at times.

The times that I've extensively dragged anchor has been in muddy bottoms with seaweed and surprisingly twice in a sand bottom with a CQR/Plow anchor. The last time, it was a good blow, and the plow made a very long furrow during the short time that I was in the head. It was during the day and I was able to reset in a different area of the bay, but I did almost drift down onto another boat before getting the engine started. The anchor was set in very shallow water and the hull was sitting in deeper water. I don't think more chain would have helped in that case since the pull was practically horizontal and the plow was plowing.

I appreciate Montanan's points about shock loading and never thought of rigging a bridle further back on the boat.

If I am going to have any peace of mind, I need to work out a better system than what I have. Your suggestions and shared experiences are appreciated.

Personally, with your boat, I would not worry too much about the weight, put as much chain as you can fit. If weight is a concern get one of those anchors off the bow.

We started cruising with a 35lb CQR/Plow but it seemed to drag a lot. We changed to a 44' Bruce and it has been fantastic. In 20+ years it has dragged perhaps 2 or 3 times, never just "releasing" but slow dragging.

We carry a 66lb Bruce below as a storm anchor. We've used it twice. (we have other anchors for other purposes). We do not sail around with two big anchors on the bow.

We do not use a bridle, but in waves or chop we'll set a single line snubber. We don't seem to "sail around" any more than the folks who use bridles. In really strong winds with chop the stretching of the snubber results in chafe going over the bow roller, even when protected inside of fire hose or plastic hose. In that case the entire length of the nylon must be overboard and not crossing any hardware such as a cleat, bow chock, or roller.

[wingless]

All-chain is great, except for the weight.

My setup was just changed by me from 200' of chain-only, to 30' of chain and the rest rope.

My boat performance was improved from carrying much less weight. The prior rode filled two five gallon buckets and it took all my strength to inch one bucket at a time, now I can carry the whole rode w/ normal effort.

The anchor locker had been suffering a beating from the chain and was restored / upgraded, as-shown in this topic.

[Montanan]

Originally Posted by StoneCrab

I've cruised the Great Lakes and the Eastern seaboard but would like to venture further next year. My boat has a full length keel with a "traditional" hull shape. It is not a fast boat and typically has the molded waterline about 2 inches below the water in the stern. It does have a lot of fuel and water capacity, which is the greatest source of weight.

I have a 60lb Bruce and 45lb CQR anchor on the bow sprit. I don't have a sense of what I should limit the chain weight to. It is a smaller chain locker, so I may be dimensionally limited.

I haven't been impressed with the plow as it has dragged on a few occasions and doesn't set worth a darn in weeds. I'm thinking of replacing it with a Mantus M2. I want to keep the thread on chain/rode solutions though, since that area needs to be addressed.

On my trips, I'd say the average water depth at anchor has been 15 to 20 feet, although I've had to do 30' at times.

The times that I've extensively dragged anchor has been in muddy bottoms with seaweed and surprisingly twice in a sand bottom with a CQR/Plow anchor. The last time, it was a good blow, and the plow made a very long furrow during the short time that I was in the head. It was during the day and I was able to reset in a different area of the bay, but I did almost drift down onto another boat before getting the engine started. The anchor was set in very shallow water and the hull was sitting in deeper water. I don't think more chain would have helped in that case since the pull was practically horizontal and the plow was plowing.

I appreciate Montanan's points about shock loading and never thought of rigging a bridle further back on the boat. I deploy twinned bridles to form a V to the chain rode with each leg of the V tied amidship and not running off the bow sprit. The long V adds length of scope and aids in restraining the yaw / sailing at anchor as the line deployed off the sides restrain the hull from yawing. Also not having the bridle lines lead off the bow avoids / mitigates the pitching upwards that the bow does when confronting waves which pitching generally derives the peaking of the load as restraining / countering the inertia of the boat's bow rising to pass over a wave is truly immense whereas most boats don't pitch nearly as much at midship. Not sure such method will work well for your boat, but worth a try. My two bridle lines [port and starboard] are very much like deploying spring lines at a docking, the angle of the bridle is very low so the vertical rising is also very low. With depths of anchorage between 15 and 30 feet, a couple hundred feet [or perhaps 230 ft.] of high strength, smaller dimensioned but not weak chain should work well for your needs in your deeper deployment prospects. As to your anchor, indeed a plow does a find job of furrowing through the pastures of seaweed being a grand farming implement. Deploying a next larger size of more modern anchor design is the best utilization of any weight constraints as to how many pounds of chain you can keep on the bow. Best regards. Hope you will rest easy on anchor. Nothing can keep you awake at night more than worrying about if your boat is or will drag when the conditions become adverse.

If I am going to have any peace of mind, I need to work out a better system than what I have. Your suggestions and shared experiences are appreciated.

Reference comment above.

[01kiwijohn]

My 36 foot boat has a 10ft beam and displaces about 13,000 lbs. we anchor about 90 to 100 times per year over an average 4-5 months.
Usually, we try to anchor in about 30 ft or less but Alaska is quite deep, sometimes in the 60 to 80 foot range. We try for a scope ratio of 5:1 but, obviously sometimes have to settle for less than that ideal.
we carry 160 ft of 5/16 HT chain with 200 ft of 5/8 3 strand spliced to that.
Our primary hook is a 45 lb Bruce.
Our stern anchor is 35 lb bruce, 40 ft of 5/16ht spliced to another 200 ft of 5/8 3 strand.
We've had the chain re-galvanized once, cost was about $1 per foot.
So far, this setup has proven adequate in the Pacific NW, Hawaii and Alaska.
Hope this helps you. If you have any questions please feel free to ask.

[spiv]

I've also had a 40kg Delta dragging several times in soft mad, the same anchor that was impossible to drag on sand. In the same muddy anchorages, people with Rocnas were holding happily.
I now have a new boat, first thing I did was buy a big Rocna [emoji16][emoji16]
My recommendation for a good night's sleep is:
1- Buy a Rocna at least one size up from recommended.
2- buy HT chain one size down from what you have, but longer.
3- sleep happily......

[roland stockham]

[QUOTE=StoneCrab;2965333]I have a relatively small chain locker with only a hawse pipe for access. The anchor sits on a bow sprit. The end of the 100' chain has a short line attached to it which is tied off inside of the vberth accessible locker.

My gypsie is sized for 5/16 HT. The boat is 19,000 lbs at 38 feet.

My view is that your ground tackle is well under sized. You don't mention the anchor but I presume it is equally undersized. It is common for boats aimed at day/weekend, racing or charter use to be equipped with what we used to refer to as a 'lunch hook', saves weight and room and if you only rarely anchor out in good weather it is fine. If you regularly anchor and may want to weather a blow it is a recipe for worry and dragging.


For a boat that size I would want to see 300ft of 3/8 chain with an anchor to match.


Clearly that won't go in the anchor locker. My suggestion would be to keep the current setup as is and use it when you want to quickly anchor in settled weather and are staying onboard. Then either create a new locker in the bilges close to the mast foot routing the chain through a hause pipe near the mast or on the side deck (ideal). Or, if that is not possible, use an on-deck storage box that will hold the rode and anchor.

[thinwater]

Stonecrab: If you have a powered windlass, with a combination gypsy, simply splice the chain to the last link of the chain. This is well proven. On the US east coast, 100 feet will be enough most of the time. When you need more, just let out rope (never less than 30 feet of rope--it will stretch to absorbe shock, and at least 30 feet are required to prevent overworking the rope).


And ditch the CQR and replace it with a Rocna or Manson, but you knew that. As for the ground tackle weight, you are about right.


New anchor. Splice rope to chain. Done.



There's a bunch of anchoring stuff on my blog, below.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by StoneCrab

I have a relatively small chain locker with only a hawse pipe for access. The anchor sits on a bow sprit. The end of the 100' chain has a short line attached to it which is tied off inside of the vberth accessible locker.

I routinely let out all the chain. While I carry a spool of line for anchoring, attaching it is always a concern since it does involve disconnecting the chain from its tiedown and then reconnecting it to the spool on deck. Not something that I like to do in a blow, but I can't leave the spool attached the way it is set up now.

Not having a proper anchor locker, I also don't have a convenient way to recapture and store the anchor rode. There is no locker to flake it into.

I am considering buying new and more chain. I am interested in opinions on how to sort this out. I have some concerns about adding several hundred pounds to the bow.

My gypsie is sized for 5/16 HT. The boat is 19,000 lbs at 38 feet.

All chain vs chain and rode?
How chain much is enough?
Is Stainless Steel worth it?
What is a good price for chain? (what brands to trust vs stay away from)

I can't help to think that some modification is needed in the bow area to improve your anchoring function. I have seen a number of boats that have added piping to direct the chain to its final resting place, sometimes amidships.

If your plans call for cruising far afield to unknown places then more chain and improvement in your anchoring setup is called for. Remember to get more chain than you might need because after some years of use you can always reverse it...short chain is a one shot deal. Forget the stainless steel chain but buy U.S. chain.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH