CLEATS: What size you got? How strong, what fasteners, etc.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Cottontop

Great info, but I'm not sure the data support nylon being almost as strong as stainless, corrected for fasteners.

True. I had the machine screw numbers mixed up in my head.

On the other hand, A tested better than C and F in some direction. For competitive than I might have expected for plastic. With a little design research, nylon could probably be made as strong.

But this is off the main point. What bothers me most is that...

a. Some of the 4-leg cleats were impressively bad. The problem is that with 2-bolts (other than nylon) will fail predictably close to the bolt sheer strength, but with 4 feet you are dependent on the cleat. Which is a problem because...

b. The vendors don't post test results. It seems to me that they should. Everything you attached to it--rope, chain, and shackles--is tested.

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by Pete7

What on earth is G 10?

I thought it was stuff for cleaning the boat or perhaps the latest idea for Dyneema, using it for for a new Galv chain, seems to get everywhere else on a yacht

Okay found the answer, it' a book from the RYA:

RYA G10. Buying A New Yacht The Legal Aspects only £5.50

A high pressure epoxy laminate, usually made with layers of fiberglass cloth. Though you can even find it made with carbon fiber. And if you get a good grade of the material, it's mechanical properties are about equal to aluminum. Though at 2/3 the weight.

It is however, harder on the cutting edges of tools than aluminum, being glass based. But you can use standard (or carbide) woodworking tools to shape & machine it.
MatWeb - The Online Materials Information Resource
MatWeb - The Online Materials Information Resource

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Does anyone know how well G-10 does when it's threaded, & is subject to shock loads? Since, for example, aluminum sucks at this as compared to stainless.

That's an excellent question and I have no idea about the answer. I think they may be comparable or that G10 has the edge by virtue of it's laminate structure.

My aluminum backing plates were not threaded (I don't think) and I was not planning on tapping the G10 replacements. I may however stack them...there are only four and it would be minimal work and expense to do that.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by Pete7

What on earth is G 10?

I thought it was stuff for cleaning the boat or perhaps the latest idea for Dyneema, using it for for a new Galv chain, seems to get everywhere else on a yacht

Okay found the answer, it' a book from the RYA:

RYA G10. Buying A New Yacht The Legal Aspects only £5.50

It's great stuff. Strong as $*#&, doesn't absorb water, doesn't corrode, can be drilled, cut, milled pretty much to whatever shape you want. It's hard on tools, but it's a great replacement for aluminum, particularly where it comes in contact with stainless fasteners.

You can buy it in almost every conceivable shape/size on eBay from plastics/laminate distributors.

It has a million uses for stuff you don't want to worry about. I used a block reconstructing my mast step to to isolate the aluminum shoe from the stainless mounting plate that bolts to the keel bolt backing plate.

[belizesailor]

Stainless cleats about 8" long x 10 (1 on each bow, 1 each midships, 1 each stern, 2 on stern platform between hulls, 2 on cat walk for ground tackle). All thru bolted with backing plates.

Plus two larger aluminum ones near ends of forward beam welded to beam.

Lots of options.

Dont recall the fastner size, but bigger than 1/4" IIRC used in the test table. Looks like the fasteners were the fail point in all the stainless tests. But, at over 6,000lbs fail for 1/4" fastners...Im not gonna lose any sleep.

[toddster8]

Not the cleats nor any other piece of hardware on my boat was ever backed by anything more than a 1/2" washer. I've been slowly correcting this, working from bow to stern, except for things that were leaking skip to the front of the line.

Meanwhile, I've had to cut a number of access holes in the fiberglass liner inside the boat. I've saved all those cut-out pieces to use as backing plate material. Poor-man's G10. To take it further, I'm sure one could get larger quantities from dumpsters near where boats go to die.

So, I'm reinforcing the forward bulkhead, and a platform above it, to better support the windlass, possible future inner-forestay chainplate, and perhaps a big-ass mooring cleat. Then it occurred to me... "Why not a Sampson post?" Well... I don't know. Never really used one before. Pros? Cons?

[UNCIVILIZED]

Originally Posted by toddster8

So, I'm reinforcing the forward bulkhead, and a platform above it, to better support the windlass, possible future inner-forestay chainplate, and perhaps a big-ass mooring cleat. Then it occurred to me... "Why not a Sampson post?" Well... I don't know. Never really used one before. Pros? Cons?

Done correctly the Sampson Post will be strong as f**k, but it'll be a line catcher for sure, especially jib sheets, unless it's right up by the bow. And if it's set aft it could be a toe stubber or trip hazard to those not used to watching where their feet are going.

Also, it'll be tricky to adjust, or add/remove multiple lines to the post as compared to a pair or trio of cleats. Meaning that one or more may/will be trapped underneath of the others.

A post also may be a bit tougher to seal against leaks, since it creates a pretty big hole in the deck. And you have to get more creative with sealants, & or gaskets.

How would you tie both a Sampson Post, & your windlass to the same bulkhead? Since both need to pretty much be on the boat's centerline.

Note that with most windlasses you can mount the windlass just aft of the bulkhead in question, so that it's motor & electrics live somewhere dry. But the chain still goes into the chainlocker proper, with but a little bit of "tuning". Which to me is a big perk.

It'd be worth starting a thread on sampson posts to get more, & better answers on these questions (& others). Along with doing a few searches on posts too.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Part of my quest, is also due to the fact that unfortunately, cleats, or what they're bolted to, are often the weak link in the system when a storm rolls through. Whether you're at anchor, or docked. And the loss of one or two can spell the loss of the vessel.

I agree.

Strong cleats and/or a sampson post(s) are a feature that sadly seems to have been lost from modern yachts.

Here are the cleats for our new yacht. These are welded with bracing under the deck to the ribs and stringers.

[Panope]

Cleats are about 12" long. A bit over size for a single 5/8" line, but handy if you need to double up. I mounted them (welded) to the bulwark instead of the deck primarily to eliminate toe stubbing.

The bollard is a little on the small side - wish it could be taller. Size was constrained by the small space, the anchor shank (not pictured) and the need for the rope portion of the center-line rode to pass directly over, to the windlass drum.

Steve

[Don C L]

I tend to think not only of quality and size of cleat, but the size of the bolts holding it. Some cleats are large and beautiful and then they have 3/16 holes drilled? Anyway my PO put in not one but two Samson posts and they are in line and fairly well forward so I haven't had much trouble with toe injuries or snagged sheets yet. (The PO liked to set two bow anchors occasionally.) They are backed up ok, and I'd rather not change out strong, non leaking things yet, but I am kind of a fanatic for oversized backing blocks. It goes back to a time my old boat grounded on the beach, heeled over in small breakers (not my fault!) and the harbor patrol came out, hooked up to my bow cleat and floored it. The 2 and a half ton boat all but jumped off the beach. I had beefed it up and put a big backing block on it fortunately. Later they commented that they were surprised it held!

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Don C L

It goes back to a time my old boat grounded on the beach, heeled over in small breakers (not my fault!) and the harbor patrol came out, hooked up to my bow cleat and floored it. The 2 and a half ton boat all but jumped off the beach. I had beefed it up and put a big backing block on it fortunately. Later they commented that they were surprised it held!

I think this is a good point often overlooked. Cleats should be strong enough to allow the boat to be pulled off a grounding in an emergency. It is not enough just to design them for anchoring loads. Occasionally boats need to be dragged with a great deal of force. Even if this causes damage to the hull, rudder prop etc. It can sometimes be a better option than leaving the boat in place, perhaps to be destroyed completely.

Many modern boats do not have an attachment point strong enough for this. It may be possible to rig up a bridle distrituting the load beteen several cleats and perhaps the winches, and even the mast, itself but this would take some time. It would also be very hard to distribute the load evenly so the strength may still be inadequate.

[Benz]

Originally Posted by UNCIVILIZED

Done correctly the Sampson Post will be strong as f**k, but it'll be a line catcher for sure, especially jib sheets, unless it's right up by the bow. And if it's set aft it could be a toe stubber or trip hazard to those not used to watching where their feet are going.

Also, it'll be tricky to adjust, or add/remove multiple lines to the post as compared to a pair or trio of cleats. Meaning that one or more may/will be trapped underneath of the others.

A post also may be a bit tougher to seal against leaks, since it creates a pretty big hole in the deck. And you have to get more creative with sealants, & or gaskets.

How would you tie both a Sampson Post, & your windlass to the same bulkhead? Since both need to pretty much be on the boat's centerline.

Note that with most windlasses you can mount the windlass just aft of the bulkhead in question, so that it's motor & electrics live somewhere dry. But the chain still goes into the chainlocker proper, with but a little bit of "tuning". Which to me is a big perk.

It'd be worth starting a thread on sampson posts to get more, & better answers on these questions (& others). Along with doing a few searches on posts too.

My boat has a hybrid bitt/samson arrangement, where two parallel vertical tubes are joined by a crossbar. They're welded to a 1/4" thick plate where they go through the deck: this is bolted through the deck with 8? 1/2" SS bolts, backed up with G-10 plates. Then the vertical tubes are bolted through the chain locker bulkhead, as if the welds to the plate could fail. The heel of the bowsprit lands between the tubes just above deck level, and it's locking pin goes through the tubes. So my Bitts are also the bowsprit attachment. I can tie lines all over the bits without stacking one over the other too much. Aft I have two bronze four-bolt cleats bolted to the OUTSIDE of the bulwark. no need for hawses there. Midships and forward I have two oval hawseholes in the bulwark: the forward for lines leading to the bitts, the midships kind of alone, but when I want to attach a line there I simply put it through and tie it to a big wooden toggle that can't come back out through the hole. No toe-stubbers on the side decks is an inflexible rule.

On my next boat, I'll eliminate hawseholes altogether (they foster way too much chafe) by having bitts that jut up above the bulwark rail, forward, midships, and aft. I've been experimenting with a provisional one forward on my boat, and I like it well.

Bad at posting pictures, but there's lots on my website: zartmancruising dot com

Ben

[SVAquila]

Like many here I've had the pleasure of completely rethinking my cleat situation. My solution was to use cleats that double as chocks on the bow and midship. Under the new cleat went a fabrication of .060" 316ss sheet bonded to 1/2" G10 plates which were then bonded to the deck. When the new deck material is laid it will be flush with the new cleat bases.
Cleats at 10" SS with two 1/2" studs. The total thickness of the glass was just shy of 1.5" thick with the G10 added and of course backed up with a stainless backing plate. [IMG][/IMG]


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[Anders]

Measures 250mm but since its an old English boat they were probably sold as 12 inch, looks really beefy and I can easily get two of our 18mm lines on them. A third line will fit.
The two stern cleats may next year be replaced by 4 vetus taurus07 if they can verify their SWL of 3600 kgf.

[Rock-Head]

Originally Posted by belizesailor

Stainless cleats about 8" long x 10 (1 on each bow, 1 each midships, 1 each stern, 2 on stern platform between hulls, 2 on cat walk for ground tackle). All thru bolted with backing plates.

Plus two larger aluminum ones near ends of forward beam welded to beam.

Lots of options.

Dont recall the fastner size, but bigger than 1/4" IIRC used in the test table. Looks like the fasteners were the fail point in all the stainless tests. But, at over 6,000lbs fail for 1/4" fastners...Im not gonna lose any sleep.


Attachment 147203

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I think this is a good point often overlooked. Cleats should be strong enough to allow the boat to be pulled off a grounding in an emergency. It is not enough just to design them for anchoring loads. Occasionally boats need to be dragged with a great deal of force. Even if this causes damage to the hull, rudder prop etc. It can sometimes be a better option than leaving the boat in place, perhaps to be destroyed completely.

Many modern boats do not have an attachment point strong enough for this. It may be possible to rig up a bridle distrituting the load beteen several cleats and perhaps the winches, and even the mast, itself but this would take some time. It would also be very hard to distribute the load evenly so the strength may still be inadequate.

At 30' & 8200lbs, I've replaced the janky OEM 6" bow cleats with very robust 8" pop-ups, 1/2" studs/nylock nuts, back plated w/ lasercut 1/4" aluminum plates. Midship 8" ss cleats w/ 3/8" ss backers & the OEM 8" aluminum cleats, w additional 3/8" back plates on the stern.

If any of these cleats ever let go, I've got big problems.