Climbing rope vs marine rope for rode

[Tin Tin]

Originally Posted by Rockinar

Who cares about the insurance people. Im the one on the boat, not them. I look at whats going to save my skin in a blow.

Sure, saving your skin in a blow is also what the insurer wants. They don't want to pay out on your policy to your next of kin or the other damaged 3rd parties caused by poorly maintained or substandard safety equipment.

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Thanks! Looks like good stuff for the right situation. What is the stretch characteristic compared to double-braid nylon and three-strand nylon? I would think that it would be too little stretch at the short lengths many might use for anchoring. For example, in my typical anchoring depth I might often only have out 75 feet of rode, and at least 50 feet of that would be chain. OTOH I have hung on long lengths of only 1/2" nylon in some big blows and never felt I was getting too much stretch. In fact, I don't ever recall feeling I was getting too much stretch, though I do read others who feel it lets their boats wander/sheer about too much.

You’re basically correct in your comments.

A boat anchored or connected to a mooring ball should have some kind of shock absorption in the system. Stretchy, nylon rode and/or chain does the trick. Isn’t it something like 15% extra stretch with nylon 3-strand over braid? Either way, we usually use extra chain, a larger anchor, and deploy more rode than is necessary when anchoring near shore. This seems to resolve most anchoring problems, whether 3-strand or braid is used. If there’s a concern about braided rode, then pay out a little more compared to 3-strand.

Shortening the rode might help a little with the “wander/sheer” you mentioned. Bridle or riding sail are additional tools. Typically, a boat tacking at anchor tends to keep tacking at anchor, due to boat design. Sometimes the added stuff placed on the boat screws up the balance.

The opposite is true for drag devices. Less stretch is better, because it helps add Tension in the rode to keep the drag device inflated more frequently. This can reduce the chance of the drag device deflating for too long a period and then suddenly reinflating; causing a massive shock load. One felt throughout the boat. Weight is also essential in providing Constant Tension in the system.

The extra stretch from 3-strand can allow a sailor to pay out less rode compared to braided rode with your drag device. The equation changes in severe storm conditions. You pay it all out with weight.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

... We’re unable to mention any further details about the Kermantle in order to avoid an ITAR violation.

How could details (technical data) about a climbing rope possibly violate the U.S. “International Traffic in Arms Regulations” (ITAR)?
Is rope on the controlled materials, or munitions list (USML) list?

The U.S. International Traffic in Arms Regulations (ITAR), administered by the Department of State, regulates the export of defence and aerospace articles, technology and materials from the U.S. The U.S. Government views the sale, export, and re-transfer of defense articles and defense services as an integral part of safeguarding U.S. national security and furthering U.S. foreign policy objectives.
The EAR regulates the export and the re-export of commercial, dual-use items, and the OFAC regulates economic sanctions.

[Fi2010]

We agree with you. Do government rules always make sense? Not always. Also, how an official interrupts the law can impact enforcement.

The military contractor we worked for was concerned about ITAR fines and made us remove information and personnel names from our online FPA Technical Report 152. ITAR is not only about the information you discovered online. We were told the worry was China acquiring too many details about the US space program. We told them China already copied our equipment, although incorrectly. It didn’t matter. We had to remove details in the report.

In fairness to the contractor, the “climbing rope” is custom made.

[Kettlewell]

The opposite is true for drag devices. Less stretch is better, because it helps add Tension in the rode to keep the drag device inflated more frequently. This can reduce the chance of the drag device deflating for too long a period and then suddenly reinflating; causing a massive shock load. One felt throughout the boat. Weight is also essential in providing Constant Tension in the system.

OT. I don't doubt your expertise on this, but in my personal experience having used a parachute sea anchor in an offshore gale (and several times not in gales) the long stretchy nylon I was using just seemed to cushion the ride and the parachute never deflated. Plus, we had no weight near the chute. Just 400 feet of 1/2" nylon out. Yes, it felt stretchy when breaking waves hit, but the wind was so strong we never stopped pulling on the line really hard, even in the troughs.

I've had the same sensation when anchored on long lengths of nylon. Plenty of bounce when big gusts or waves hit, but never a feeling we were rebounding to the point of excessive veering about at anchor. I suppose it depends on your boat, depths, sea conditions, size of the rode, and all sorts of things. My memory of these situations was that it was really nice to have the stretchy nylon out to cushion the blows. As you point out, there are several ways to reduce the veering about while retaining the advantage of having the stretchy nylon. I've used a second anchor numerous times.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

I've had the same sensation when anchored on long lengths of nylon. Plenty of bounce when big gusts or waves hit, but never a feeling we were rebounding to the point of excessive veering about at anchor. I suppose it depends on your boat, depths, sea conditions, size of the rode, and all sorts of things. My memory of these situations was that it was really nice to have the stretchy nylon out to cushion the blows. As you point out, there are several ways to reduce the veering about while retaining the advantage of having the stretchy nylon. I've used a second anchor numerous times.

In my experience, the excessive at anchor happens more when it's gusty, especially when there are small direction changes in the gusts. The boat gets stretched off in one direction, the gust eases and you spring back, then the next gust hits and the boat blows off rapidly until hitting the end of the rode and stretching it enough.

Not all boats do it as badly though, and it's very dependent on the exact wind conditions. The smaller the gusts relative to the steady wind, the less it happens. And boats that point into the wind more calmly at anchor will tend to do a little better as well.

[Tin Tin]

Given the title of the post which seems to have now included parachute anchor rode : a quick search reveals the maker of the Para-anchor



Fiorentino's Deployment Rode 1/2" Tensile strength 10,500 lbs


as a comparison


New England Climbing rope 1/2" TS 7000 lbs

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Tin Tin

Given the title of the post which seems to have now included parachute anchor rode : a quick search reveals the maker of the Para-anchor



Fiorentino's Deployment Rode 1/2" Tensile strength 10,500 lbs


as a comparison


New England Climbing rope 1/2" TS 7000 lbs

Which NE climbing rope? Remember, the OP is talking about recreational dynamic climbing rope, not static lines or rescue ropes, which are very different.

• No one makes 1/2" dynamic recreational climbing rope. The larges size is about 11 mm and most are 9.5-10 mm.
• Climbing ropes are not rated by strength, and even finding that spec is usually difficult. The strength is typically 5500-7000 pounds, but they are not 1/2" ropes.

A climbing rope that is too strong or lower in stretch will place increased strain on the anchors the climb placed, which is a serious concern. Too much stretch would be a bungee cord, which has other problems. It is a classic three bears problem, where the size, strength, and stretch must be "just right." The drop test also includes a dull edge, to test cut resistance and loss in strength on a very small radius.



Fiorentino is not talking about dynamic climbing rope, because for their applications the stretch characteristics are wrong and they want even more chafe resistance. No yacht braid would do either, so they got something custom. There are other industries with similar challenges, that use similar ropes with mixed constructions. But that discussion would take us far into the woods.

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

OT. I don't doubt your expertise on this, but in my personal experience having used a parachute sea anchor in an offshore gale (and several times not in gales) the long stretchy nylon I was using just seemed to cushion the ride and the parachute never deflated. Plus, we had no weight near the chute. Just 400 feet of 1/2" nylon out. Yes, it felt stretchy when breaking waves hit, but the wind was so strong we never stopped pulling on the line really hard, even in the troughs.

I've had the same sensation when anchored on long lengths of nylon. Plenty of bounce when big gusts or waves hit, but never a feeling we were rebounding to the point of excessive veering about at anchor. I suppose it depends on your boat, depths, sea conditions, size of the rode, and all sorts of things. My memory of these situations was that it was really nice to have the stretchy nylon out to cushion the blows. As you point out, there are several ways to reduce the veering about while retaining the advantage of having the stretchy nylon. I've used a second anchor numerous times.

You’re correct. Boat design does factor into the equation. Strong wind also helps out. At least you know what to do if a boat does start to bounce around too much – rode length and weight. Increasing vessel speed via power and sail can also help out.

[Fi2010]

Originally Posted by thinwater

Which NE climbing rope? Remember, the OP is talking about recreational dynamic climbing rope, not static lines or rescue ropes, which are very different.

• No one makes 1/2" dynamic recreational climbing rope. The larges size is about 11 mm and most are 9.5-10 mm.
• Climbing ropes are not rated by strength, and even finding that spec is usually difficult. The strength is typically 5500-7000 pounds, but they are not 1/2" ropes.

A climbing rope that is too strong or lower in stretch will place increased strain on the anchors the climb placed, which is a serious concern. Too much stretch would be a bungee cord, which has other problems. It is a classic three bears problem, where the size, strength, and stretch must be "just right." The drop test also includes a dull edge, to test cut resistance and loss in strength on a very small radius.



Fiorentino is not talking about dynamic climbing rope, because for their applications the stretch characteristics are wrong and they want even more chafe resistance. No yacht braid would do either, so they got something custom. There are other industries with similar challenges, that use similar ropes with mixed constructions. But that discussion would take us far into the woods.

1/2” climbing ropes are used. We recommend you visit a rope manufacturer who specializes in climbing rope. The information you find on the internet isn’t always accurate.

All rope is made from the same machines using a variety of fibers. There’s always fiber cross overs between the various marketing terms used to describe rope. We use zero to high stretch ropes, cable pulling, climbing, and marine ropes for drag device deployment.

Intended use determines what rode is recommended for the end user. Many times it’s about how easy the rope is to handle and pack. Hence, nylon braid rope is common for ground tackle use, because of ease of use and stretch; compared to a stiffer climbing rope or three strand.

Sticking with the original subject, climbing rope might be okay to anchor smaller boats, but not your average size cruising boat.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Fi2010

1/2” climbing ropes are used. We recommend you visit a rope manufacturer who specializes in climbing rope. The information you find on the internet isn’t always accurate.

All rope is made from the same machines using a variety of fibers. There’s always fiber cross overs between the various marketing terms used to describe rope. We use zero to high stretch ropes, cable pulling, climbing, and marine ropes for drag device deployment.

Intended use determines what rode is recommended for the end user. Many times it’s about how easy the rope is to handle and pack. Hence, nylon braid rope is common for ground tackle use, because of ease of use and stretch; compared to a stiffer climbing rope or three strand.

Sticking with the original subject, climbing rope might be okay to anchor smaller boats, but not your average size cruising boat.

I guess it depends on how you define "climbing rope." Most people take this as UIAA single ropes sold into the recreational market, and those are 9.5-10 mm. But the OP did include arborist rope, and some of those are larger (used for lowering limbs, but with some shock absorption required). Some of that stuff gets pretty big (3/4", 40,000 pounds BS). Other than UIAA specs for recreational climbing, and OSHA rules for rope access, there are no specific designations for "climbing ropes" (if it meets OSHA's strength spec you can climb it) so we get into the woods. From this point of view, the OP's Goldline (I used that back in the day) is a climbing rope, but it never passed the UIAA single rope standard.

Yes, NER makes 1/2-ropes for climbing (non-UIAA, but rescue and arborist). They test 10,000 pounds BS, not 7,000, from what I see. KM III, for example. But this is a static rope. Enough stretch for anchoring? Good question. Some are semi-static and could be quite good.

UIAA single ropes are defined and should not be confused with the larger world of "ropes you can climb on, but are not UIAA ropes."


---


The real question is whether, all things considered, if any kernmantle rope would be more useful for anchoring than 3-strand and brait. One answer (mine) is that I have used climbing rope, (11 mm UIAA single) and it worked, but it's expensive, cannot be practically spliced, is incomparable with windlasses, and doesn't flake as compactly in a locker, but is nice to handle. Overall, I like 3-strand better (better grip with gloves, generally better abrasion resistance). But I might use it again if I had a reason.

[Fi2010]

It looks like the details/thoughts have been nicely expressed by everyone.

[Kettlewell]

The real question is whether, all things considered, if any kernmantle rope would be more useful for anchoring than 3-strand and brait. One answer (mine) is that I have used climbing rope, (11 mm UIAA single) and it worked, but it's expensive, cannot be practically spliced, is incomparable with windlasses, and doesn't flake as compactly in a locker, but is nice to handle. Overall, I like 3-strand better (better grip with gloves, generally better abrasion resistance). But I might use it again if I had a reason.

How about climbing rope on a lightweight anchor that gets taken out in a dinghy for Bahamian moors, a secondary anchor, or for other purposes? Would climbing rope be easier to handle than 3-strand or possibly double-braid nylon? I currently use 3-strand for this purpose, kept in a sailbag so I can easily put the bag of line and an anchor in the dink to take out. It works well enough, though there is always a tangle or two that slows the process. I've found just flaking the line into a bag makes it more tangle free than trying to coil it. Frankly, the most foolproof way to keep the line from tangling is to have someone on deck paying the line out to you as the dink goes out, but that is not always possible. In any case, how would climbing rope behave in this scenario?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

How about climbing rope on a lightweight anchor that gets taken out in a dinghy for Bahamian moors, a secondary anchor, or for other purposes? Would climbing rope be easier to handle than 3-strand or possibly double-braid nylon? I currently use 3-strand for this purpose, kept in a sailbag so I can easily put the bag of line and an anchor in the dink to take out. It works well enough, though there is always a tangle or two that slows the process. I've found just flaking the line into a bag makes it more tangle free than trying to coil it. Frankly, the most foolproof way to keep the line from tangling is to have someone on deck paying the line out to you as the dink goes out, but that is not always possible. In any case, how would climbing rope behave in this scenario?

Climbing rope tangles too. Personally, I find a soft 3-strand easiest to handle in terms of grip and tangles, but double braid is fine.



Just flake the rope into the dinghy, no problems. Not a coil, too much to deal with while rowing or paddling.

[Kettlewell]

Climbing rope tangles too. Personally, I find a soft 3-strand easiest to handle in terms of grip and tangles, but double braid is fine.

Yep, I've stuck with good old 3-strand nylon over the years and it does seem to have the best combination of strength, stretch, ease of splicing, price, durability, and availability in all different sizes and strengths.