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Kim Klaka · 03-01-2016, 15:22

I think most of it has already been said. In summary, it depends mainly on the type of seabed you are anchoring in. You need rope somewhere in the system to absorb snatch loads ( snubber or nylon rode), but you mustn't let it chafe on a harsh seabed. You might find the following article helpful
http://abba.org.au/wp-content/upload...c-Jan-2015.pdf

With regard to any well-informed but conflicting advice you have received, you might like to consider my slightly radical approach to making "difficult" decisions:
once you have all the information available and you still can't decide between two paths, then it doesn't matter which path you take because they are both equally sensible.
Kim

R_C · 03-01-2016, 16:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by captjcook

If it is an older bronze Ideal vertical windlass...Ideal, at least last year, would convert it to include a gypsy/wildcat. Very well built and rebuildable units. This would save fiberglass work in changing out windlass. I have a bow eye installed about 6" above w/l with large backing plate to reduce vertical dip of about 4' (4x5=20) less scope, I run my 20' nylon snubber to it.

When we bought the boat I contacted Ideal to see if it could be converted to a wildcat. They said it could not. I just found their installation, operation, and maintenance instructions online and it lists an option for conversion to chain. I'll check it out.

captjcook · 03-01-2016, 17:21

I looked at the drawings for a friend of mine who has (still) an Ideal without a wildcat. He was asking if I could do the conversion cheaper. He had a quote from Ideal for a total rebuild/wildcat refit, not cheap but considering options and associated other expenses... As I recall, it would take a longer shaft, finding a reworkable wildcat and some tweaking with the release clutch. Not rocket science. He happened to find a 1979 nos, perfect in the original box etc combo unit for a price I just could not mention here, well way, way, way less than new in 1979....some ppl have all the luck...some of us cursed with ability to fix stuff...cheers and good luck!

**Jim Cate** · 03-01-2016, 18:50

this subject has been beaten to death so many times...

If the OP only anchors in familiar, well protected shallow anchorages, the use of a mixed rode can be acceptable. If one ever envisions anchoring in anger in an unfamiliar spot and with greater depths... well, all chain is a no brainer decision. A look around any anchorage where long term cruisers lie, far from their home waters and with no nearby marina berth to retreat to if the wx packs it in, one will find very nearly 100% are o n all chain. Draw your own conclusions from that observation.

The scope issue: with chain and a modern anchor, we commonly lie to 4:1 scope, and have found that to be useful. If pressed for space, 3:1 has held through some surprisingly strong winds. If stronger conditions are f/c, or pipe up unawares, it isn't too hard to add more chain. The slavish insistence upon 7:1 or some other magic number is a holdover from older anchor types where decent holding could not be achieved with shorter scope. The new anchors simply hold better than their predecessors.

Finally, for the OP: if you have not perused Nolex's thread of photos of anchors in use in the real world, please take the time to do so. It is extremely informative, both about the behavior of different anchor types and anchor deployers. IMO it is far more useful than all the traditional tables and formulae beloved by internet pundits... it is reality!

Cheers,

Jim

markpierce · 03-01-2016, 19:33

If you've got a suitable windlass and your boat can take the weight, all 3/8-inch chain will be sufficient/satisfacory.

SailFastTri · 03-01-2016, 20:03

R_C you really should follow the links Ocean Girl posted above -- those are the definitive references IMHO.

As for adding chain, 5/16" HT chain weighs about 1.1 pounds per foot. You'll likely regret putting out more chain without a windlass to handle it. Add to that any windage pull, and anchor break out force; and every time you attempt to leave it will be "OH NO here we go again".

IMHO -- forget this idea unless you're ready to do it right and get a windlass that's set up for chain or mixed chain/rope.

four winds · 03-01-2016, 20:38

Switched from a CQR with mixed rode to a Manson with all chain 3/8" G3 a little over a year ago. I have no windlass or plans to add one.

Living at anchor and coastal cruising all this time has presented many opportunities for a workout getting underway. One day many months ago I could not do it in about 15-18 knots of wind. Couldn't pull the boat up the last 20 feet or so to the anchor. Rested and waited for wave action to break out the anchor on such short rode, but it didn't budge suprisingly.

Didn't have to move on that day so I stayed put. Posted a thread here called "Could not weigh anchor today" and got a lot of good advice about how to deal with all chain, singlehanded, no windlass anchor challenges.

Haven't had a problem since and just consider it a bit of morning exercise to start the day.

zboss · 03-01-2016, 22:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by four winds

Switched from a CQR with mixed rode to a Manson with all chain 3/8" G3 a little over a year ago. I have no windlass or plans to add one.

Living at anchor and coastal cruising all this time has presented many opportunities for a workout getting underway. One day many months ago I could not do it in about 15-18 knots of wind. Couldn't pull the boat up the last 20 feet or so to the anchor. Rested and waited for wave action to break out the anchor on such short rode, but it didn't budge suprisingly.

Didn't have to move on that day so I stayed put. Posted a thread here called "Could not weigh anchor today" and got a lot of good advice about how to deal with all chain, singlehanded, no windlass anchor challenges.

Haven't had a problem since and just consider it a bit of morning exercise to start the day.

I don't know... I like the idea of being able to get my chain pulled up fast. I have had both a manual windlass and an electric windlass fail at different times for different reasons.

What happens when a boat or some other thing has broken away and comes bearing down on you? I've never had that happen to me but I have witnessed it happen to others. In many cases, being able to pull up the anchor in a hurry is not a luxury but a safety requirement. IMO - Best of both worlds is a windlass that works as efficiently manually as it does electrically.

R_C · 04-01-2016, 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ocean Girl

Fantastic questions. Not sure if you've read Even and Beth's write ups..

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Main...hor%20test.pdf

Also Alain fraysse awesome page ....
Rode - Static Behavior

Hope this helps.
Erika

Excellent! That's just what I was looking for. I like a good mathematical analysis of the conditions and how the weight of the rode affects the equation. For a given force showing how scope is reduced as depth increases was also nicely explained. Thanks for the link.

R_C · 04-01-2016, 09:25

I really appreciate everyone's comments. I believe I will stay with the current windlass with capstan for now. I'll add 125' of 5/16" G4 chain connected to the existing 200' of 3-strand nylon. In our normal anchoring depths of around 12' plus 5' to the roller that will allow a 7:1 scope on all chain.

I'll look into chain hooks, chain grabs, soft shackles etc. When anchoring, I'll secure a cleated nylon line to the chain with a couple of wraps around the capstan so we can set the anchor. After it's set I'll add a snubber or bridle. While I prefer the simplicity of a single-line snubber fastened with a rolling hitch, I want to eliminate our current practice (I knew someone would catch it) of wrapping a line around the capstan before cleating. So, I'll search these forums for low-tech bridle ideas. I want something I can just toss overboard if I have to let out more rode in a hurry and I'm guaranteed to retrieve later when weighing anchor. After the bridle is set, I'll secure the same line we used while setting the anchor to secure the chain should the bridle fail. It will be cleated after a few wraps around the capstan but there will be no force on the windlass unless the bridle fails.

I also appreciate the suggestion for an incremental approach. Later, I can look at a new anchor and retrofit our current windlass with a wildcat or add a new windlass. I can and have brought our anchor on board entirely manually. I'll bring most of the chain on board manually just like I do now with our mixed chain and nylon rode and use the windlass just to raise the anchor.

R_C · 04-01-2016, 11:21

I've read posts about how to buy chain and see that US made Acco/Peerless G-4 Hi-Test Galvanized Chain with ISO short link is the preferred chain and ready for a future windlass. Our local marine supply is quoting $5.18/ft. for 5/16" chain (have to verify it is Acco) and Defender shows $3.19/ft. Even with the cost of shipping Defender is a better deal. Is there a better source for chain in SW Florida?

Training Wheels · 04-01-2016, 11:32

Personally, I only use 7:1 if it's howling. Usually on 3 or 4:1. Don't worry about much unless it starts blowing over 20. You must have some very uncrowded anchorages to use 7:1 all the time. I use a Spade on 60' of 5/16" chain. Usually anchor in 20' or less.

Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

ranger58sb · 04-01-2016, 12:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by R_C

Is there a better source for chain in SW Florida?

Hopkins-Carter is a supplier in Miami, and he's here on the forum (user = HopCar). Drop him a line, might be worth a drive over Alligator Alley.

-Chris