Do I have TOO much chain?

[MJH]

Originally Posted by WE9V

Okay, after reading pages and pages of threads, I think this one is slightly different. Most threads are "how much is (just) enough" from a minimal cost, effort and weight perspective, but I want to ask it coming from the other direction.

My new to me boat came with 400 feet of 3/8" G4 on the primary anchor, plus 50 feet of 3/8" G4 on a secondary anchor, and I discovered another 100 feet of 3/8" G4 connected to nothing, lying at the bottom of the anchor locker. So it seems the chain locker has enough room for 550' of 3/8" G4. Space doesn't seem to be an issue. (After removing the unused 100', I don't seem to have to flake the chain upon retrieval, so vertical fall has improved. This also means that I went from 550' total chain down to 450'.)

The 50' on the secondary is too short, so I am intending to add a nylon rode and not the 100' of spare chain. The windlass has a rope drum in addition to the primary chain gypsy, so that's why I'm leaning toward rode and not more chain on the secondary.

Boat is a Beneteau 41, and intended cruising grounds is the East Coast of USA plus the Caribbean. The boat has a new 1200w windlass. So I know many previous thread comments would say that 100' is enough, 200' is luxurious, and more is overkill (in this intended cruising area), but again, that's from the perspective of buying new. I already have the 400' on the primary. It's sunk cost (no pun intended). Should I actually reduce chain? I know people mention performance hit due to weight in the bow. Can someone please quantify what performance I am trading off? I mean if I reduce from 400' down to 300', that's about 150 pounds saved...what does this equate in performance? This is a cruising boat, and I will spend more days at anchor than sailing. Maybe the tradeoff isn't worth reducing chain.

A couple weeks ago, in my second time anchoring this boat (well, technically second time I've ever anchored any sailboat), I got hit with a 50 kt (measured) storm, so I'm in no hurry to reduce chain to a minimum. I was in 11 feet of water, with about 100' out. Including freeboard, that was only about 6:1. Had I known that was coming, I would have increased scope somewhat, but that anchorage was crowded. Fortunately, I didn't drag other than a short reset due to the 180 degree wind shift with the storm.

The proper amount of chain you have aboard should be dictated by your plans for the boat and depths where you will be anchoring plus a little extra. I would keep the 400' primarily because it is there...your covered for almost every contingency. You don't say how old the chain is and what condition it is in. In time all chain will wear so that is when you can reverse it and consider cutting some of the really bad links off...remember a chain is only as good as the weakest link. With that much chain you can always let out more when the wind picks up.

The 50 feet on the secondary is in the normal range...a boat's length. I would keep the 100' at home or sell it.

I have 300' x 5/16" HT galvanized chain on my primary and have used most of it a number of times here in the Northwest.

Good Luck.

[sailcrazy]

We sail a 43' "heavy cruising monohull (~32,000lbs w/ full tanks) We bought a 25kgm Rochna several years ago-one of the best purchases we ever made-as our primary. We've sailed Asia, The Medd, and now 8 years in the NE/E Caribb. We carried 100m (~330') of 3/8 chain as primary, and never have ad an issue. In fact, after never using more than 170' of chain in the last 8 years, we just shortened our chain to 200'. With the strong easterly trades in the Caribb, you can count on needing to go to wind regularily.....and with our 330' we "banged" through head seas and always took green water over the bow. Reducing weight in the bow certainly will not hurt that sailing trait! If you intend to stay onboard and ride out any hurricanes....then extra chain may be a good idea. We haul out and go on the hard during the season. But, based on our experience, I'd be hard pressed to carry more than 250'-300'....cut it off, see how it goes, and save it to add back on if you really think you need it. But added weight in the bow does no one any good. By the way, we carry 100' and a Lewmar Plow in the aft lazzarette...just in case. And getting rid of the 2nd anchor on the bow (in 25 years of sailing we never used it!) made a big difference.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by ranger58sb

Since you can... easily... keep another anchor on the bow, ready for immediate emergency deployment. Decent new anchor, different style than the main, maybe sacrifice slightly a bit of size/weight in favor of performance. (See Steve's comparisons, again.) With either the 50' or the 100' of chain, plus a generous length of rope (8-plait?) to fill out the rode. An FX-37 might be a decent choice...

And then keep a Fortress (or Guardian) loose for a kedge. Maybe an FX-23 if above turns out to be an FX-37.

I might slightly modify my earlier thought about an FX-37 as a second anchor. I usually think of Fortress as a Danforth-style of size X but with a more manageable weight. Or as a Danforth-style of weight X but a more effective size.

It occurs to me if you only have room for a Danforth-style anchor and choose that style as your hot spare... a steel version would be heavier than a Fortress of the same size (whatever your size limitation might be)... and I usually like heavier when there's a competent windlass involved.

The trade-off might be sailing performance, but I don't have a way to guess about that...

-Chris

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by carlwk3c

We cruised the east coast of the US and have spent the last 6+ years in the Caribbean from Bahamas to Grenada on our 34’ monohull. We have 300’ of 5/16 G40 chain and normally use a 35# CQR as our anchor. (We have a 65# Mantus that we put on the chain on the bow roller during hurricane season.)
We’ve never needed to put out more than about 150’ of chain in any of the anchorages throughout the aforementioned area. In fact, I can’t think of an anchorage where it would be possible/prudent, let alone necessary, to put out 4-500’ of chain.
We do clean the 150’ we’ve been using and do an end to end every 2 years when we haul out for bottom maintenance.

So you never anchored deeper than 25’ ? I think most boaters want to be able to put out a 6:1 scope and 50’ depth during high tide is pretty normal, which makes 300’ a minimum.

[sailcrazy]

A 6:1 scope......is that some new standard? I've heard and read of (and used) a 4:1, and 5:1 in multiple references, unless a big blow is expected, and then up to a 10:1 is often recommended. But never seen a 6:1 mentioned. I've even seen a 3:1 often used as well, if the wx/winds are reletively quiet. At a 6:1, in normal conditions, you'd occupy a lot of anchor space-hope the anchorage is not crowded. I guess that would be another advantage of a heavier anchor.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by sailcrazy

A 6:1 scope......is that some new standard? I've heard and read of (and used) a 4:1, and 5:1 in multiple references, unless a big blow is expected, and then up to a 10:1 is often recommended. But never seen a 6:1 mentioned. I've even seen a 3:1 often used as well, if the wx/winds are reletively quiet. At a 6:1, in normal conditions, you'd occupy a lot of anchor space-hope the anchorage is not crowded. I guess that would be another advantage of a heavier anchor.

3:1 is a normal scope. When you have the correct size anchor, going to 6:1 scope will get you through a hurricane.

The thing is that you can do with less scope as the depth increases. With 300’ of chain you can anchor up to 100’ depth for all conditions up to 50kts wind and up to hurricane conditions at depths of less than 50’.

You will encounter 20’ tides in several places in the world and will have to deal with that as well.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by sailcrazy

A 6:1 scope......is that some new standard? I've heard and read of (and used) a 4:1, and 5:1 in multiple references...

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

3:1 is a normal scope. When you have the correct size anchor, going to 6:1 scope will get you through a hurricane.
...

3:1 is not normal - that is insufficient in most cases other than stopping for lunch, or if in really deep water.

I'm curious what references sailcrazy refers to? Most guides I've seen are similar to the USCG's recommendations:

The general rule is five to seven times as much line as the depth of water plus the distance from the surface of the water to where the anchor will attach to the bow

Of course I think simple ratio formulas are dumb. I prefer a specified length of chain plus water depth plus height to bow roller - for my 47ft, 15 tonne ketch, I use 120' plus depth.

[Joli]

If you are planning to come to the Caribbean then 400’ is fine. Anchorage depth can be 50’ so laying out 250’ isn’t uncommon. Plus you will want to end for end the chain annually. Then when one end goes bad you can cut off 100’ and use the center for a couple more years. Don’t shorten the chain till necessary.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

3:1 is not normal - that is insufficient in most cases other than stopping for lunch, or if in really deep water.

I'm curious what references sailcrazy refers to? Most guides I've seen are similar to the USCG's recommendations:



Of course I think simple ratio formulas are dumb. I prefer a specified length of chain plus water depth plus height to bow roller - for my 47ft, 15 tonne ketch, I use 120' plus depth.

3:1 is normal for those with good anchors. For a small blunt CQR… not so much.

[merrydolphin]

Yes you have too much chain. But if you want to keep it. Store any excess over 200 feet somewhere near amidships in the bilges. Or sell it. I like 200 not 100 or 75 not for holding. I agree 75 will give you good holding in almost any depth. But the issue is other boats. In busy anchorages I have seen a number of boat cut adrift by yahoos carelessly cutting too close to your bow. Particularly in foreign ports where the locals just don’t understand to not do this. If you have all your chain out and now have rope rode exposed instead of chain. It can get clipped.

However, in a relatively light 41’ boat you don’t want all that weight in the bow!

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

3:1 is normal for those with good anchors. For a small blunt CQR… not so much.

I respectfully disagree. In a typical Bahamas anchorage, that would give me 45' of chain out. From my chain sim app, it calculates that all the chain will have lifted off the bottom in 10 kts of wind. At 12.5 kts, it's pulling at 7º above the horizontal, which I understand to equate to a reduction in modern anchors' potential holding power by 50%. That angle is doubled with a fairly common wind of 20 kts.

By contrast, my 130' (roughly 9:1 scope) of chain will keep the pull at the anchor horizontal until the wind hits 30 kts.

What's the point of having a good anchor, if you're going to hobble it?

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I respectfully disagree. In a typical Bahamas anchorage, that would give me 45' of chain out. From my chain sim app, it calculates that all the chain will have lifted off the bottom in 10 kts of wind. At 12.5 kts, it's pulling at 7º above the horizontal, which I understand to equate to a reduction in modern anchors' potential holding power by 50%. That angle is doubled with a fairly common wind of 20 kts.

By contrast, my 130' (roughly 9:1 scope) of chain will keep the pull at the anchor horizontal until the wind hits 30 kts.

What's the point of having a good anchor, if you're going to hobble it?

In shallow anchorages you'll generally want more. But part of the reason for having an overkill anchor is so that when you're in a decent bottom, you can afford to throw away some holding power and shrink your swing circle to fit better in places that you otherwise wouldn't.

[peter loveridge]

I don't think you can ever have too much chain. The only time I think you might have is in shallow water with 100 knot winds, when you might want to have the shock loading of nylon rope for a bit of the rode. A few years ago I was close to Cape Canaveral on the ICW. We got a tornado warning. Went to the sheltered!! side and anchored. 40lb CQR and 100 feet of G4 chain.Next 10 minutes, 100knot winds, torrential rain, couldn't see my cross trees 18 feet above the deck, 5 lightening strikes every second , for 5 minutes, some 20 feet from the boat.After we realised we were not dead, looked at the chart plotter, perfect circle, 5 spikes associated with the biggest gusts. Anchor never moved and we are still alive. Closest point of approach of the tornado, about 40 yards

[nautilee]

I have cruised extensively in the U.S. East Coast including Florida, Bahamas, Caribbean, and have weathered quite a few very nasty and unexpected squalls including in not very good holding and with wind, tide and current all extreme and conflicting. In one instance my 44ft Island Packet , weighing in at about 18tonnes, has held and was one of only two boats which did not drag out of 18 in the anchorage. I have about 300ft chain and a Rocna 32kg anchor and had most of my chain out. I also drop waypoints when anchoring to show where anchor is initially dropped and then again when chain let out and boat settled and leave on tracking on chart plotter which shows me exactly where my boat has moved or swung, so I can immediately tell if the anchor has dragged and if so where it has reset itself - Rocna's usually reset almost immediately. Since then I have upgraded/increased anchor weight to the Roca 44kg, not because it was necessary (see above) but just because I sleep better on anchor with heavier ground tackle. I would not reduce my 300ft chain, especially as you need every foot you can get when nasty weather hits. As to a 2nd anchor, I concur with the previous suggestion of the Fortress. You can get a bracket that attaches to the rail at the bow to hang the Fortress upright (it takes little space) and keep the 50ft chain and add 200ft good rode attached and secured in the anchor locker so that you can quickly just throw it over the side should an emergency occur. Emergencies do happen, although hopefully not, and should your Rocna become snagged and you have to detach it from the boat, leaving a fender floating to show where it is to have a diver retrieve it at a later date, then you do need your Fortress. There are other instances where a second anchor is advisable, rarely but they do occur. Hope this helps.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I respectfully disagree. In a typical Bahamas anchorage, that would give me 45' of chain out. From my chain sim app, it calculates that all the chain will have lifted off the bottom in 10 kts of wind. At 12.5 kts, it's pulling at 7º above the horizontal, which I understand to equate to a reduction in modern anchors' potential holding power by 50%. That angle is doubled with a fairly common wind of 20 kts.

By contrast, my 130' (roughly 9:1 scope) of chain will keep the pull at the anchor horizontal until the wind hits 30 kts.

What's the point of having a good anchor, if you're going to hobble it?

You pick the exception, which is shallow water. I think I know lots about anchoring and the reason is that I’ve been doing it for 50 years incl. enough hurricanes that I lost count.

For shallow water I always recommend to put a minimum amount of chain out and for this I use 60’. My anchor roller is 5’ above water so this amounts to 15’ water depth for a 3:1 scope.

In the Bahamas you normally anchor in sand which translates to good holding. There are test results available but I estimate that sand is about 3 times as good as thin mud, so you should be fine at 3:1.

During hurricane Isaias I put out 120’ of chain in 14’ of water over good sand. Wind was 70 kts sustained over a 12hr period and 50 kts for much longer. It was fine, I didn’t worry for a second.

When you put out 120’ of chain in Bahamian anchorages, you severely limit anchoring for others and you can be sure that another boat will sit over your anchor. 3:1 scope is a courtesy to others and should not give any trouble short of a frontal passage.