Do We Have Anchoring All Wrong?

[RaymondR]

The Fortjord anchor is a nasty looking thing to have on the bow roller of a cruising yacht.

And as practicable as they may be I would not want the big drum winch in the crowded, skinny, pointy front if my sail boat.

The winch I have now is a nice compact thing with most of the delicate bits under the deck and it will handle both rope and chain and the chain stows low down in the boat in a locker and won't dribble rust on my decks.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

What is so specific about the use case? I frequently share anchorages with these boats, so at least at that time our use case is identical. They also anchor in places I wouldn't even consider and in conditions I wouldn't like. If their configuration works under both sets of conditions then wouldn't that argue their setup is superior - it has a broader use case than what I currently employ?

I agree the use case is similar.


But what is fundamentally different about what they do? So they like a different kind of anchor -- so what? Neither do we all use the same kind of anchor. They have a different kind of windlass. Otherwise it's the same principle.


Maybe the lack of snubber, but I don't use a snubber myself (except in exceptional weather).



My guess is that that anchor is less efficient (needs more weight for the same holding power) and so they are cutting it closer on anchor holding power, unless they are oversizing more than we do.



I think they will be less demanding than we are about anchoring, and sure as hell spend 1/1000 of the amount of time we do, thinking about anchoring. I doubt if many fishermen expect to sleep through storms at anchor, the way many of us do. I guess those guys do practically what works without throwing the huge amounts of time and money at the anchoring problem, that we do, in search of perfection.



I like the drum windlass but as others have said -- space for that would be a problem on most sailboats. Might be just the ticket for a larger expedition type boat. I don't think this type of windlass really changes anything about how you anchor -- it just means you don't need a gypsy and you can have all kinds of different rode hooked together without any problem, plus you don't need a chain locker.



I like the dyneema rode, but the drum windlass would be the only way to handle it, so that's out for us. I guess chafe is not a particular problem if you have a good fairlead. We use nylon rodes after all, which is highly vulnerable to chafe. Breaking Waves on some thread pointed out some particular structural vulnerability of single braid dyneema, but I still doubt very much that any single braid dyneema is anywhere near as vulnerable to chafe as nylon. The high strength and light weight of dyneema is very attractive, for this application, in my opinion. The fact that it floats might be a problem in crowded anchorages, however.

[Benz]

The cruiser's anchoring requirements developed when windlasses were all manual, engines were not powerful, and often their boat was their home and all their worldly wealth. Fishing boats have powerful engines that can get them out of anything quickly, access to spares (try getting galvanized chain or any kind of decent rope in Honduras), and if they're any good, a decent budget. So the two methods have evolved from different mindsets and different requirements. The cruiser needs (or did historically) reliable longevity. He needs the most holding per pound, as well as per volume. Fishing boats are working with different parameters. Their way is probably best for their requirements, but what cruisers have evolved is probably best for theirs.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

The fact that it floats might be a problem in crowded anchorages, however.

Slightly off topic, but wold make a good shore line for mooring in fjords. After a week in the Scottish Western Islands, its something I would like to have on my own yacht for those quiet protected anchorages which that coastline is adorned with.

Pete

[LittleWing77]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

They care less about total weight, foredeck space, etc. Plus they already have hydraulics to run the big drum winch.

E-zactly.

Those units are huge! Can you imagine having all that chain wound as its stored on the drum in foredeck?

There is a vast difference between commercial and recreational boats and uses.

LittleWing77

[hpeer]

Personally I think a lot of it has to do with TRADITION.

We are herd animals and tend to do what others do.

In Newfoundland many fishing boats have homemade grapnels. Lots of rocky bottom up that way. But still, grapnel? Yet they are professionals who care for their personal safety.

Herd instinct is strong.

You can easily see it in how design changes come about and are all the rage.

Like fins on cars.

[rslifkin]

On the elasticity thing, if they're using bigger, heavier chain than we are (especially towards the anchor end), it's quite possible that they can get enough stretch from catenary in the conditions they expect to anchor in. Realistically, they're probably sizing for less severe conditions than many here do, and they also have a smaller range of cruising grounds to account for.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by hpeer

Personally I think a lot of it has to do with TRADITION....

I sort of buy that, except, they’re using UHMWPE rodes. That’s not traditional. Galvanized wire rope would be traditional, and yet a better product came along and has been so widely adopted, so quickly, for so many uses aboard, that it can be difficult to source wire rope quickly.

If it was just the anchor I’d say tradition, or just age (look at how many CQRs are still hanging off the bows of sailboats in marinas around the world). But it’s a whole different setup. Materials, technique, the whole kit and kaboodle is a different beast.

As an aside, the marine stores up here cater to the fishing fleet. I could walk in to any one of them and buy a modern, roll bar anchor off the shelf, they have stock. But I never see those anchors anywhere other than on the store shelf, and I have no idea (well, I do) where I’d buy a Forfjord, haven’t seen them in stock anywhere. How do I reconcile that conundrum?

[rslifkin]

Switching from wire rope to UHMWPE isn't a big change in the grand scheme of things. It fits all the same equipment they already had. And many of those Forfjord anchors are probably ancient, but they get the job done well enough, so they keep using them.

[MathiasW]

It would seem to me that fishermen will by and large stick to their territories and so can 'optimise' their anchor gear for that. Maybe not consciously optimising it, more a herd-kind of thing, but still.

For those that sail around the world, at least, such optimisation is not possible.

But I do agree, it is a very interesting observation and worth thinking about it.

I really do not know those fishing vessels very well, but I would suspect that their ratio of windage area to vessel weight is rather smaller than for typical sailing vessels. This would imply they get less tossed about in a swell than we do, sail less at anchor than we do, and hence would need less elasticity.

Cheers, Mathias

[malbert73]

I also think commercial vessels always have an overnight anchor watch and never leave boats unattended at anchor.

[Rucksta]

Big ugly rusty thing sitting on the deck of my pretty sailboat chewing deck sweeping Kevlar genoas like termites in a balsa cored deck.

What's not to like about that?

[noelex 77]

I love looking at commercial /fishing boats. The equipment used is often more robust and reliable than the equivalent fitted to modern yachts.

However, I don’t think their anchoring gear is better. They have the luxury of choosing an anchor design that works in a specific area rather than the necessity of choosing a versatile primary anchor, but despite this it is not unusual to see these boats dragging in strong conditions.

Just as one example, a few anchorages ago I watched a fishing boat repeatedly drag. It was reasonably weedy, which I think was causing the problem. A yacht with a CQR also could not hold even before the significant wind arrived (see photo below). So private yachts don’t always embrace modern equipment. A private yacht and I (both using Mantus M1 anchors) held perfectly.

I would be happy with a drum winch (although mounting one in such a way that it would not snag sheets would be a challenge), but giving up new generation anchors, no thanks .

[bobnlesley]

Originally Posted by Allied39

...a great many "folks" on this forum believe that their way is the best way ( which I applaud) and that any other way of doing things is to be attacked/ belittled or denigrated...

I've generally found that when advice/opinion on anything nautical includes the words 'there's only one way to do that' or similar, then it's usually best ignored.

[MathiasW]

Originally Posted by bobnlesley

I've generally found that when advice/opinion on anything nautical includes the words 'there's only one way to do that' or similar, then it's usually best ignored.

Are you still aground and awaiting a very high tide???