Do We Have Anchoring All Wrong?

[Dsanduril]

There's a lot of arguing back-and-forth here on CF about anchoring (that and guns may even be what keeps the lights on). What is the best/right anchor? Rode? How much/how heavy? How do you drop it? Set it? Attach a bridle?

And yet the setup used by commercial fishermen here in Alaska, who collectively spend a lot of nights at anchor in some pretty inhospitable settings, doesn't remotely match anything we discuss here. Most of these boats are 30-60', similar in size to a lot of the cruising fleet, with a few seiners that go to about 80'.

• Anchor - For boats over ~35' (10m) this is universally a Forfjord. Under that length and you start to see some Bruce/Bruce knock-offs although many/most of the smaller boats still use a Forfjord.
• Windlass - Universally a drum winch. Larger boats always hydraulic, a few smaller boats use electric.
• Rode - A length of heavy chain attached to the anchor and long enough to just reach the drum. This chain is about 1/2" to 1" and may be stud-link. This is connected to coil chain in similar sizes to our use (1/4" to 1/2" depending on boat size). In about half the cases the rode is all chain, in the rest some chain (usually around a boat-length) is backed up by Dyneema (or other, less expensive UHMWPE - drum winches list their Dyneema capacity). Specifically, there is little to no dynamic stretch and with the rope/chain combination little catenary.
• Swivel - For the most part none, although a few boats have giant industrial swivels.
• Snubber - Pretty much none.

There are no Mantus/Rocna/Manson/Spade anchors to be seen. No roll bars. There is no stretch to found in the rode, even when it is chain-to-rope. Never a windlass/gypsy that has to be matched to the chain. No chain stops. Few belaying points for the rode other than the drum (which are advertised as having positive dog stops). A completely different approach to the consensus (is there one?) opinion(s) here on CF.


Typical setup on a small gillnetter.


And on a larger boat.


Close up of large chain leading to smaller on drum.

Do we have it all wrong? Is our use case so different that a different configuration is required? How did two so wildly different techniques come out of what seems to be a common need?

Panope #6 Forfjord Test

and

Panope #52 Forfjord Test

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

T
And yet the setup used by commercial fishermen here in Alaska,

That's a very specific use case and generalising to cruising boats around the world based on it would be dangerous to say the least.

[Dsanduril]

What is so specific about the use case? I frequently share anchorages with these boats, so at least at that time our use case is identical. They also anchor in places I wouldn't even consider and in conditions I wouldn't like. If their configuration works under both sets of conditions then wouldn't that argue their setup is superior - it has a broader use case than what I currently employ?

[Allied39]

I believe that whatever works for the individual, then great.
I personally have sat through fairly severe weather on a CQR. My CQR has never let me down.
Now that could be attributed to a multitude of things or a conjunction things IE; Rode length, rode type, vessel being held. use of snubber...etc etc etc.
My opinion is that if a mantra works for you, excellent, a bruce, awsome,,etc etc etc.

I think perhaps what might be throwing you off is that a great many "folks" on this forum believe that their way is the best way ( which I applaud) and that any other way of doing things is to be attacked/ belittled or denigrated. Not so much applause.

I have seen it lately that "folks" felt it necessary to actually post on the classifieds doing the above,,,,adding nothing but their absolute indisputable knowledge of said item AND it's price.
It was pointed out to me that thats a great thing, especially for the novices, (official angry you bad note)for accurately pointing out the lack of need for that.
I really find it hard to agree with that thought process.....but....each to their own I suppose.
I dare say the fisherman of which you speak have not been subjected to the superior knowledge of CF and simply don't understand what they are doing.....or perhaps the exact opposite.
Anyhow, good luck on your anchoring thread. I shall leave you to it.

[rslifkin]

They care less about total weight, foredeck space, etc. Plus they already have hydraulics to run the big drum winch.

[Dsanduril]

Well, I believe my own current way is generally the "accepted" way here on CF. I have a modern rollbar anchor. All chain rode. A windlass. A very long snubber that I attach to the chain using a soft shackle.

The question came up for me because when a low starts marching across the gulf and the forecast calls for some crappy weather we all head for the same protected hidey-holes, fishermen and cruisers alike. And when I'm sitting there with 20 or so boats, and three of them are cruisers with anchoring setups similar to mine, and the other 85% all share a universal setup, that is significantly different, and seem to do well with it, then I wonder if that configuration is better? worse? equal but different?

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

They care less about total weight, foredeck space, etc. Plus they already have hydraulics to run the big drum winch.

Drum winches are available in similar capacities and sizes with electric motors and present a similar battery load (the electric drum winch recommended for our boat uses a 1500W motor, exact same spec as our current windlass). The ones with UHMWPE have less total weight in their system than I do, while using a similar sized anchor and maybe somewhat heavier winch. Foredeck space I can see, although many boats with bitts and other hardware up front with the windlass do have crowded foredecks.

[StuM]

An alternative view of appropriate anchors for Alaskan fishing vessels


https://seagrant.uaf.edu/bookstore/b...er/anchors.pdf

"From Pacific Fishing, January 1999
By Terry Johnson, University of Alaska Sea Grant, Marine Advisory Program"


"The old standby, the Fjirforth, is a pivoting fluke anchor still in widespread use in the fleet; but the fluke area is relatively small, and the old-style pick relies as much on weight as on the ability to dig into the bottom
...
On commercial vessels, storage usually isn’t a big issue, at least not for the main anchor. "

[StuM]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

and the other 85% all share a universal setup, that is significantly different, and seem to do well with it, then I wonder if that configuration is better? worse? equal but different?

or just "traditional" ?

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by StuM

or just "traditional" ?

Well, that is the question. Is the setup I see similar to a CQR on a cruising boat - what everyone used to have, and what most of the inactive boats in marinas still have? Or does tradition remain alive because it is effective?

Back when my primary anchor was a 20-pound CQR I could see the argument that the Forfjord took more space/stowage. Most of the modern anchors recommend larger sizes, and my own anchor takes at least as much storage space and weight on the bow as the Forfjord on similar sized fishing boats.

[Jim Cate]

Have you had any feedback relative to the longevity of the dyneema rodes? Such ideas always get dinged here due to worries about chafe... and I've wondered how it really worked.

Jim

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Have you had any feedback relative to the longevity of the dyneema rodes? Such ideas always get dinged here due to worries about chafe... and I've wondered how it really worked.

Jim

I haven’t had any feedback but have the same question. Fishermen tend to be cheap, so I suspect it lasts a while I will inquire.

This is probably the biggest part of the question to me. Our conventional wisdom is that you must have some elasticity in the rode, and unless you anchor in “deep” water (see anchor math thread) catenary disappears as a source of “elasticity” pretty quickly. Which leads to the recommendation to have long bridles/snubbers of some form of elastic line.

The fishermen’s rodes have no elasticity and seem to work. And if the UHMWPE is chafe resistant enough then it offers a significant weight savings over chain. How, though, do I attach a snubber to that if elasticity is required?

[Spindrift NH]

Is it the case that these vessels keep engines running and crew on watch at the helm?

[Stu Jackson]

Found any 30-50 foot sailboats with room on the foredeck for that big-assed winch?


Most cruisers I've read about here use all chain with a snubber, no dyneema involved.


As StuM said, weight on one of those fffjrd anchors is precluded on sailboats, since many discussions tend to discuss weight at the bow of a sailboat.


I think you're comparing apples & oranges.

[Dsanduril]

Originally Posted by Spindrift NH

Is it the case that these vessels keep engines running and crew on watch at the helm?

Most of the boats that are around us are less than 50’ with a crew of 2 or 3. When things are good they’re fishing 16 hours/day, when they pull in to rest they all pass out and leave the diesel stove running for heat. Depending on the boat sometimes also a generator if they need to keep a pump running for a well.

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Found any 30-50 foot sailboats with room on the foredeck for that big-assed winch?


Most cruisers I've read about here use all chain with a snubber, no dyneema involved.


As StuM said, weight on one of those fffjrd anchors is precluded on sailboats, since many discussions tend to discuss weight at the bow of a sailboat.


I think you're comparing apples & oranges.

The anchors on the 30-50’ boats are between 40 pounds (#4 - mfg says 40’/22000 pounds) and 97 pounds (#8 - mfg says 55’/67000 pounds). That’s in line with current recommendations for modern anchors on cruising boats of a similar size.

Remember, the drum stores the rode, so depending on configuration it could be installed in an anchor locker. I know for us, I could readily fit a drum in either our chain locker (not sure how I would get it in) or on deck where the windlass is (both at the base of our mast, not on the foredeck).

The systems are definitely apples to oranges, what I’m trying to figure out is why. I do see the foredeck space as a valid reason not to fit a drum winch, still curious about the rode (and the anchor, to a lesser extent). The weight of opinion, at least among long distance cruisers, seems to be all chain (possibly pun intended). I’ve been impressed with the chafe resistance of UHMWPE on deck, and we all know it is strong. So, how does it perform when wet, underwater, against coral, or with sand embedded in the weave?