Do you Like your Rope Rode ?

[estarzinger]

I was just thinking about, and trying to understand MarkJ's position . . . .

I don't know if he is still single handing, or if he is perhaps much better at it than I am . . . but . . . when I am single handing, and anchored in a tight group of other boats, I know that I am a bit reluctant when it is gusting to 30, to move/re-anchor. I can and have done it when it became absolutely necessary, but I am very aware that things can go very wrong very quickly, and am reluctant to unless "I absolutely need to'. Having all chain out eliminates one of those 'things that can go wrong or too slowly' (getting the rope to chain junction by the windless) when you are single handing, but it is still potentially tricky in 30kts, in a tight anchorage, when single handing. It is just one of those things you have to be aware of and compensate for when single handing (at least at my skill level).

But if this is the key factor behind MarkJ's comments/opinions, it is really a somewhat different (or at least specialized) point/topic than the OP question about the minimum acceptable length (or weight) of chain.

[JK n Smitty]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I made a custom setup similar to the Ultra Anchor snubber pictured. Only, I used giant sized rubber dock shock absorbers and 22mm braided line. Both lines feed through the bow roller and anchor at each bow cleat. I also used the Ultra chain grab appropriate for 1/2 chain, a stainless steel chain hook will also work.

I hadn't thought to use the rubber dock shock absorbers. Good idea. I also really like that Ultra Anchor snubber.

Thanks,

Jesse

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by JK n Smitty

I hadn't thought to use the rubber dock shock absorbers. Good idea. I also really like that Ultra Anchor snubber.

Thanks,

Jesse

I will be adding a couple of anti-chafe sheaths over the lines where they pass over the bow roller next season. 'Seems to be a wear area. I got by just fine with a 1/2 stainless chain hook for 3 seasons; the Ultra hook is quite expensive, but works a tiny bit better by allowing enough room for two separate attachment points for the line.

[Panope]

Originally Posted by RainDog

If you are on the pacific, the equation is certainly different. On the southern US East Coast, Gulf Coast, Bahamas, and Florida Keys, I think you could cruise for 10 years and never anchor in over 15 feet of water. Perhaps I am wrong on that?

If I anchor in 15 feet at high tide, I had better set the lee-cloths up on the bunk cause it's a 50/50 chance that I will be thrown onto the floor when the boat flops over at low tide.

Steve

[roverhi]

I wouldn't worry about the bottom but chafe at the chocks on the boat. Went through a much depleted tail end of a hurricane on a mooring. Had doubled up the mooring line and added lots of chafing gear. With the force of wind and waves, the chafing gear got eaten through and into the mooring pendants at the chock fairly quickly. Tried without success to readjust the chafing gear. Gave up thinking I'd like to keep my fingers. The stretch on the line was amazing chafing along a fairly long section which became an issue with the chafing gear. Only way I kept the boat off the rocks was to regularly adjust the wear point by letting line out in short increments. Worked but wouldn't for an unattended line. Did have to change the lines afterwards as they were so badly chafed. Adjusting the lines was not easy to do because the force on the lines was tremendous and they tried to run free off the cleat unless there was a full wrap around the cleat. Even then, it was a struggle to hold the line.. There was no way I could hope to hold or pull in the rope if it was free. Couple that with trying to just stay on the bow with the incredible pitching of the boat, made for an interesting night. The boat had a single large cleat at the bow for the mooring lines. Two lines to the same cleat didn't work. Ended up having to let one of the lines wear through as I couldn't slip one then the other without freeing both lines completely off the cleat. Tried it and nearly lost both lines overboard. Had the sme thing happen in a long bout of high winds. Had to swim out to the boat everyday to change the chafe point on the lines. Got old after a week.

Rope rode will work for a majority of your anchoring. Unfortunately, it will fail miserably when the excrement hits the fan.

[rebel heart]

10:1? The Pacific has 100' anchorages and plenty of them. Carrying 1000' of chain, or even 300 chain and 700 line?

I'd have to unzip my fly to find that kind of length onboard.

[svmariane]

For the OP: I vote all chain because of chaff problems on the anchorage bottom, but understand weight limits. We compromised and use both chain and rope: chain connected at the anchor with line being attached to the chain for increase scope if needed. Pacific Anchoring. Been doing that these past nine years. Rarely get the rope wet.

How long a length of chain "should" you have? I say, long enough so that the only thing to ever touch bottom - or coral heads - is metal. Estimating depths in your intended anchoring areas would be key.

Caveat: Yeah, some places have so much trash that it's best to have only chain in the water. Example: Here in Pago Pago the tsunami littered the bottom with sunken boats, bicycles, refrigerators, etc. etc. What a mess!

Our setup: Two chunks of 3/8 HT approx 60 meters (200-ish ft each); One 50 meter, one 70 meter piece of 3/4" 3-strand nylon {w/ss thimbles at each end}; Bunch of galv shackles. Several small floats that could attach to the nylon should we need to deploy lots of that. Haven't needed those so far.

We could connect both pieces of chain together with both pieces of line into one long rode but as of yet haven't found that necessary.

Underway, one chunk of chain gets stowed in the lazarette; second anchor gets lashed to the aft deck. Both go forward (shortly after anchoring) and get rigged for rapid deployment if needed. Moving that anchor and chain around the boat helps keep me in shape

And for your amusement: Once we needed to weigh anchor and skedaddle. Kind of a "What do we do NOW?" moment because the forward anchor chain locker holds but one piece of chain. So I laid the second chain back and forth along the portside deck, tying it in place with small line to the stanchions. When we hove to that evening I stowed things properly. Worked for us.

James

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by Delancey

So, all chain 4:1 scope. 4m is about 13' and my bow is 7' off the water (not really) so 20' x 4 + 80' which makes the rode length about 82' 6"

I have a 30' long snubber, so I've got 52' 6" of chain out and 250' of chain in my locker?

Originally Posted by Delancey

Just checking.

Hi,
Let me put my personal view into this.
Your boat is Briand’s 40 footer, designed in the eighties.
For me it means that anything more than 50 meters of chain on the bow will be completely unacceptable when sailing. Even today Briand’s boats are weight sensitive mainly in bows. Thirty years ago it was notorious problem with his – other ways excellent – designs. Such a boat is definitely not contemporary Bene and can not bear such a load far forward without obvious penalty.
On the other hand all chain rode is vastly superior for longer cruising, especially short handed.
For the most of the time You will do well with some 150 ft. of chain (think about height from the seabed to the anchor roller as 20 ft. average and scopes between 1:4 and 1:7 when anchoring out). Longer rode You may need really rarely, as Med style mooring is not on Caribbean agenda as I understand. For rare needs You can have on board two solutions at the same time:
· Attachable rope rode (Spectra is very interesting idea)
· Attachable chain rode
Attachable chain You can have in three or even five parts (shorter portions = more manageable), and store them centrally in the bilge. Central and low – the way to go with Briand’s boat, I suppose.
For me even better to put 100 feet on bow and 200 feet to the bilge. Only thing You need are good HT steel links for Your chain – I assume that for most of the time You will not need the scope of more than 1:5.
I have know nothing regarding Your cruising style. If You want to change places very frequently, may be go for 150 ft in locker. If not, 100 ft. shall suffice, but You may choose a practice to take up next 50 – 100 ft. up from the bilge to deck on each anchorage just to be on safe side. When not sailing this additional weight will be not of great concern.

Cheers!

[Panope]

Originally Posted by roverhi

I wouldn't worry about the bottom but chafe at the chocks on the boat. Went through a much depleted tail end of a hurricane on a mooring. Had doubled up the mooring line and added lots of chafing gear. With the force of wind and waves, the chafing gear got eaten through and into the mooring pendants at the chock fairly quickly. Tried without success to readjust the chafing gear. Gave up thinking I'd like to keep my fingers. The stretch on the line was amazing chafing along a fairly long section which became an issue with the chafing gear. Only way I kept the boat off the rocks was to regularly adjust the wear point by letting line out in short increments. Worked but wouldn't for an unattended line. Did have to change the lines afterwards as they were so badly chafed. Adjusting the lines was not easy to do because the force on the lines was tremendous and they tried to run free off the cleat unless there was a full wrap around the cleat. Even then, it was a struggle to hold the line.. There was no way I could hope to hold or pull in the rope if it was free. Couple that with trying to just stay on the bow with the incredible pitching of the boat, made for an interesting night. The boat had a single large cleat at the bow for the mooring lines. Two lines to the same cleat didn't work. Ended up having to let one of the lines wear through as I couldn't slip one then the other without freeing both lines completely off the cleat. Tried it and nearly lost both lines overboard. Had the sme thing happen in a long bout of high winds. Had to swim out to the boat everyday to change the chafe point on the lines. Got old after a week.

Rope rode will work for a majority of your anchoring. Unfortunately, it will fail miserably when the excrement hits the fan.

Same thing happened to my dad in Baja 25 years ago aboard Panope. He fought and fought chafe by inching and inching rode and snubbers until he was out of line. Lost his whole primary set-up. He was able to keep the boat off the rocks. The hot, dry wind instantly evaporated the salt spray - by the end of the ordeal he was totally encrusted in salt.

There has been advances in snubber design lately, namely the "super snubber" by estarzinger that features a length of Dyneema for the portion that goes over the bow - no stretch so no sawing back and forth.

I myself will have my "super duper snubber" available which will consist of a short length of 3/8" BBB chain for the portion that goes over the bow followed by a nice long hunk of nylon for stretch. I will lash the the chain to the boat with something ridiculous oversize that can easily be cut away with a knife. It will make all kinds of nasty noises as it tries to grind its way through the boat but I doubt I will be sleeping through a 60 knot blow anyway.

And if things go totally crazy, I'll just skip the snubbers and let both bow anchors fly as both of these mixed rodes terminate with about 20 feet of chain (lashed to a hardpoint in the anchor locker with amsteel).

Steve

[onestepcsy37]

I have 150 ft of chain. East coast usa and bahamas. I have never yet put out 100 feet. Normally use 7 to 1. For bad days 10 to 1.

[cheoah]

Originally Posted by onestepcsy37

I have 150 ft of chain. East coast usa and bahamas. I have never yet put out 100 feet. Normally use 7 to 1. For bad days 10 to 1.

100' of chain doesn't quite do it though, does it?

What is the the best method for joining sections of chain together? Is there a way one could have (3) 100' sections and keep sections stowed unless you need it?

What is the current thinking on rope to chain splicing? I spliced mine right to chain, and it seems fine. I think the thimble is safer, but it is a bit cumbersome for the windlass with all the hardware. I used to always use thimble and shackle (sans windlass), but wanted to try a rope to chain splice for a while. The thimble and shackle is not so bad as to want to risk what inherently looks a little on the anemic side, when you lay the strands across the tight bend of 5/16 chain. Maybe it is slightly better with 3/8 chain, and the splice is definitely easier with 5/8 three strand.

I'd like to really try to stick with 100' of chain on the bower and keep the weight down up there for now.

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by cheoah

What is the the best method for joining sections of chain together? Is there a way one could have (3) 100' sections and keep sections stowed unless you need it?

C-LINK from Crosby is O.K. for this.
Hmmm... Thought it is U.S manufacturer....

[cheoah]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

C-LINK from Crosby is O.K. for this.
Hmmm... Thought it is U.S manufacturer....

Hi there, I use Crosby products only, for shackles, slink links, etc, because I can't source others locally. Campbell is part of a regional conglomerate, but I've yet to find a place I can buy their G43 chain product et al. Not that I've given it much attention, but at the least, an email inquiry to the company went unanswered, which is no surprise.

So, most people just use a connecting link alone? I recall something about using spectra or dyneema for this application. Something not permanent allows you to have a modular system, like with the three 100' sections. I'd really like to avoid having a bunch of chain in the bow but I also don't want to hijack this thread too much.....

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by cheoah

I recall something about using spectra or dyneema for this application. Something not permanent allows you to have a modular system, like with the three 100' sections. I'd really like to avoid having a bunch of chain in the bow but I also don't want to hijack this thread too much.....

.

Some time ago, on the boat chartered by my friend we used a "soft shackle" made of or spectra or dyneema (I'm not sure what it was exactly) to connect two bits of chains (from two separate chain/roppe rodes) to create longer chain rode. Worked O.K., but wear of this element on windlass was substantial in short time. And any coral of course will be in no other place than suitable to chew through it...
Here we can find the link similar in form to two D shackles on common pin. Not convenient to use, needs frequent checking but is a solution. Will give a try to find if it is available on internet. If so, I'll be back with info. may be a problem as I do not remember manufacturers name for this.
I think that this problem is essentially in mainstream of this thread.

[Cuttyhunk]

Originally Posted by cheoah

What is the current thinking on rope to chain splicing? I spliced mine right to chain, and it seems fine. I think the thimble is safer, but it is a bit cumbersome for the windlass with all the hardware. I used to always use thimble and shackle (sans windlass), but wanted to try a rope to chain splice for a while. The thimble and shackle is not so bad as to want to risk what inherently looks a little on the anemic side, when you lay the strands across the tight bend of 5/16 chain. Maybe it is slightly better with 3/8 chain, and the splice is definitely easier with 5/8 three strand.

I had a long chat about this with the guy who does the splices for Defender (when I was working there last summer). I didn't feel that comfortable with a rope/chain splice vs. a thimble and shackle, but the current boat has a maxwell windlass that requires that splice to work with a rope/chain rode. He showed me how he splices the 8-plait onto the chain and convinced me that the splice is a lot stronger than the rope itself, a properly done 8-plait splice around chain is very tight, and will have far less potential for chafing or heat buildup from the working of the line than the line around a thimble would have, plus you eliminate the shackle. 8-plait is very nice, no kinks and it falls into the anchor locker neatly and easily.

Twenty-plus years ago, when I cruised in the Caribbean, rope/chain rodes were the norm, and only the "rich people" had all chain. Electric windlasses were unreliable, and manual ones were slow and expensive. The new Delta anchor had just arrived on the scene and most people had a Bruce or CQR. I bought a 35 lb Delta for my 33' CSY, with 30' of 3/8 chain plus 300' of New England Ropes 3-strand. Probably straight out of a Practical Sailor recommendation, although I think the chain came with the boat. As a (at the time) 32 year old pretty strong woman, I could raise this anchor/chain combination. I raised anchor about half the time, and the windlass died the first month we had the boat, so this was important.

Fast forward to today, and the boat we just got came with a Spade (which I had never heard of) and a rope/chain combo with 30' of 5/16 G-4 chain. I'm not sure how heavy this Spade is, but it seems similar to the 35 lb Delta. I didn't trust this anchor I'd never heard of, so I bought another trusty Delta, and borrowed the chain/rope rode off my 27' Pearson for the journey up to RI from MD so we would have a spare. We used the Spade, though, with the windlass. Nice anchor! I'm sure many here would say it's not big enough, but there is also an ENORMOUS aluminum Spade in a locker for the big storms.

So, the Delta will go on another bow roller as soon as I install it and the Spade will stay on the windlass with my new chain/rope combo with 8-plait. Still 30' of chain.

This thread has me thinking, however, that I might go to 75' of chain on the rode I have made up in a few years when we finally go down island (the current new one will then go on the Delta). I do not want to rely on the windlass always working and I think I could still get this rig up if needed. My husband has an iffy back, so I will likely do most of the anchor work, still.

I confess, in the two years I spent island-hopping twenty years ago, I did have my rope rode cut by a coral head one night in Rodney Bay, St. Lucia. Some excitement, but no collisions and we retrieved the anchor the next morning. We didn't hear the line parting, but some change in the movement of the boat alerted me and I went topsides to check things out. And then got the engine going in a hurry!