Dragging my Rocna - Is my technique at fault?

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

1. I completely see your point, and agree. Which is why I asked for the input of more experienced sailors as I'm trying to learn as much and as fast as I can.

2. I don't think however that you needed to be so aggressive or disparaging in your comments. Perhaps switch to decaf?

3. If you can do it without being so pissy, can you explain what you mean by a "proper chain stopper" or how better/more safely to attach or reconfigure my snubber?

1. Good.


2. Sorry.


3. Use the bow cleat to tie off the inboard end of the snubber, and don't loop it through the hole in the cleat, just tie a cleat hitch, that way you can easily take it off when pulling up the chain. Don't wrap your chain around the cleat. Buy a "chain stopper" to do that. Google or do a search here on that and learn what it does. There are a few of them available in the marketplace. They mount on deck and old the chain securely, but also allow it to come & go freely when required, takes the load off the windlass, just like you're trying to do with incorrectly wrapping the chain around the cleat.

[CruiseN]

I haven't been around chain in like 25 years. I can't remember attachments.

Your boat bigger too, but this worked for us on 1.5 tonne laden 24 foot.

Ballast. We'd ballast at keels leading edge inside cabin. If we couldn't fit the heavy stuff there we'd place beam of keel. Fast vertical tapered edge fin.

Ballast. Thus removing heavyweights from further distance from bouyansy pivot of hull; rocker.
Otherwise in heavy weather he'd be swinging a hammer in the wind. Keeping slightly forward instead of aft kept nose down, slowing boat but safety first, more controllable. That was balanced, had beat into wind flying spinnaker later.

Ballast. With less pendulum, rocker snap carried less momentum.

Short scope. If needed, I can't remember but if I look in anchor well it'd be as clear as sunshine, we early attached line (rope) to our 8 mm proof chain thus shortening the chain of rode yet also using the remaining allowance of chain to heavyweight the chain rode at vessel end. Line floats yet line stretches and gives and hence line is a natural spring such as a sheet in the rythm of the wind.
That line now attached to bow cleat.
The worst leverage being the strongest leverage yet long line to absorb and the big dump of chain resisting lift ensuring drag down below.

Like someone typed earlier (nice 1 )
Might have been a different thread, chain better in drink than in locker.
Heavy chain does the work, anchor locates that, line helps to dampen system too.

[Don C L]

I'm late to this party, and if it was mentioned, pardon me, but have you checked Panope's and Noelex's great threads about videos and photos of anchors setting? Somewhere back in there I believe I recall that Rocnas that land upside down in soft mud do not have the inclination necessary to rotate and dive, and that may also apply if it lands on its side. I hope Steve will chime in and tell me if my memory is correct. And the comment that with such a short scope that it may just be collecting mud instead of diving and then making it harder to set later, with more scope, seems to ring true too.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

1. Good.


2. Sorry.


3. Use the bow cleat to tie off the inboard end of the snubber, and don't loop it through the hole in the cleat, just tie a cleat hitch, that way you can easily take it off when pulling up the chain. Don't wrap your chain around the cleat. Buy a "chain stopper" to do that. Google or do a search here on that and learn what it does. There are a few of them available in the marketplace. They mount on deck and old the chain securely, but also allow it to come & go freely when required, takes the load off the windlass, just like you're trying to do with incorrectly wrapping the chain around the cleat.

Re the chain stopper, as stu has said there are many out there and if you go down that path do make sure that it is well fixed to the deck with a substantial backing plate. Another option is a chain hook on a short strop, say a meter in length, that is hooked onto the chain after the windlass and then cleated off to the nearest cleat.

[CruiseN]

Some like to slow there boats down sir.
Making a thicker plane on the same vessel at same laden weight of a sister ship.
Reasons include anchors drag.

A more drag of a consistent pull rather than action such as a rattle gun.

Although argument of at least 50 years, LoL, the slower vessel is capable of faster due to much slower deck reactions hence the coping of heavier conditions.
You do have a keel section Infront of your fin, the V shape. Many say this isn't a keel, it's part of the keel son. Same thing said differently. Removes a lot of slap, does its job.

The aft plane's a fast plane. Many like to laden aft to create a stance of a shallower leading plane face under hull. Hence, like a wood plane, vessel is easier on forces to slice water wedges. But in heavier conditions, we enjoy keeping traction hence we slice deeper.

Anchoring in fine conditions comes into play on drag regarding laden stow choices. Light to fair conditions might encourage underway ballast to be further aft per the simple ease to enjoy motion. But on anchor in still waters, with an aft cockpit laden with crew, all the weight has brought the vessels bouyansy pivot towards aft. Hence when another vessel passes, the anchored vessel will pitch higher and wait longer before bowing down. That's height on strength with a hammer to tend fast.
Just something to be aware of.

I'm giggling. We cruised on a fast plane that would skiff. Recon has sister ships stating that 20 knot max for symmetrical spinnaker. Understanding of slowing the boat down (below water line) and reducing speed of crew (need of each reaction times) meant that in Gale we were comfortable with full sail into the wind (although point nearer 80 degree).

Nowadays seeking a slow hull vessel to mainly sit in a marina slip with. Ironic because they ride well on picks.

But we look at displacement. 38 foot must be 7 or 8 knot. Just simply stowing heavy store in your preferred locations will assist your preferences underway including anchorages.

Best journeys bro,
We enjoy all sorts too.

Can't help with crown. We'd dive down to assist drag into pit set if needed. But we wouldn't tie off direct chain due to hammer action. Bigger boats like yours with windlass, chain etc should always spring because chain might be to heavy to dump, to long to feed out, other vessels passing during flat water, etc.

[CruiseN]

Idk if this interests you.
Aircraft carrier anchor chain foredeck.

https://youtu.be/3u7pFUklV1k

But if sailing with kids and they do anchor. Then in their brilliance don't worry about snubber and argue that ships don't line, straight chain holds them.

Arguably, their lever is reduced by dropping chain through quarter hull eyes, their lever further reduced by attachment at a lower deck, they don't set and forget, they use crew and watchmen. Their hull lengths ain't pitching much and further more, they let out lots of chain and increase length of conditions rise thus the the chain rode shape is maintained as a curve into a drag and isn't allowed to taunt. Besides.. their anchors aren't big enough and they'll maintain propellers if needed to hold.

Idk. That's what I was told though having snapped an 8mm proof chain on a long 1 foot wave.
Whoops. Brand new anchor too, must have held aye. LoL

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Re the chain stopper, as stu has said there are many out there and if you go down that path do make sure that it is well fixed to the deck with a substantial backing plate. Another option is a chain hook on a short strop, say a meter in length, that is hooked onto the chain after the windlass and then cleated off to the nearest cleat.

Yes the latter point. No need for more holes in foredeck- I let out chain and then hook on a chain hook (Mantus chain cradle) that always lives on a strop on a bow cleat. That way I never set using windlass, and I can verify a good set before setting snubber.
And if it’s a millpond anchorage I’ll delay setting snubber because of this hook

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Use the bow cleat to tie off the inboard end of the snubber, and don't loop it through the hole in the cleat, just tie a cleat hitch, that way you can easily take it off when pulling up the chain.

ok that makes sense.

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Don't wrap your chain around the cleat. Buy a "chain stopper" to do that. ... They mount on deck and old the chain securely, but also allow it to come & go freely when required, takes the load off the windlass, just like you're trying to do with incorrectly wrapping the chain around the cleat.

Something like this?

Yes, taking load off the windlass was my primary concern. I had not considered the case of a broken snubber putting load on the chain to prevent its removal.

I'll have to look at my foredeck and see if there's even a place for something like this to mount. Its possible there's no place I could mount it to "deck" for the chain lead to be fair from windlass to roller.

I have a stainless bow roller that might have space for something like this to be mounted inside the steel channel, however my concern then would be access to the stopper.

Does the chain run freely either direction when the lever is in one position, and in the other position is held fixed? How do you release it when there's load on the chain?

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Yes the latter point. No need for more holes in foredeck- I let out chain and then hook on a chain hook (Mantus chain cradle) that always lives on a strop on a bow cleat.

A chain stopper is quite different to a chain hook and strop. With a chain stopper you can always freely retrieve chain, but it will immediately grip if the chain tries to pull out, allowing just a few links of chain to be retrieved while avoiding loading on the windlass. This can be useful in many situations.

It works the same way as a rope clutch.

They are not easy to fit on many boats as they require a reasonable amount of space between the anchor/chain connection and the windlass gypsy, as well as a strongly reinforced deck.

If you have the room, a chain stopper is worth considering. If not, at least fit a short strop with a chain hook on the end.

[rslifkin]

A chain stopper is definitely not an option on many boats. It would be nice to have one on mine, but with a horizontal windlass, the chain path is too high off the deck, so I'd have to raise the stopper up about 5 inches (and that would be hard to make strong enough). Typically I do cleat the chain on the samson post, but you guys bring up a good point about that being impossible to remove under load if the snubber failed. Looks like I'll be investigating alternatives there.

[Panope]

Originally Posted by Don C L

I'm late to this party, and if it was mentioned, pardon me, but have you checked Panope's and Noelex's great threads about videos and photos of anchors setting? Somewhere back in there I believe I recall that Rocnas that land upside down in soft mud do not have the inclination necessary to rotate and dive, and that may also apply if it lands on its side. I hope Steve will chime in and tell me if my memory is correct. And the comment that with such a short scope that it may just be collecting mud instead of diving and then making it harder to set later, with more scope, seems to ring true too.

Don,

If my memory is correct, the idea that a 'Rocna anchor stays inverted in soft mud' came from the "Chesapeake Soft Mud Test" and was only a theory as photography is impossible in that area.

In my soft mud testing (thousands of mile away) I found that Ronca anchors attain and maintain the correct attitude 100% of the time. Note that my soft mud test site is almost certainly not as soft as the Chesapeake soft mud.

Steve

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

A chain stopper ... not easy to fit on many boats ...
If you have the room, a chain stopper is worth considering. If not, at least fit a short strop with a chain hook on the end.

Thanks. I doubt there's room or a suitable location for me.

So, to clarify for me. The strop/hook combination solves the problem of a loaded chain around a cleat being unable to be removed if the snubber breaks?

But if my snubber breaks with my current setup, couldn't I just motor or sail forward a couple feet to unload the chain? I'm still struggling with the fundamental problem statement here.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

Thanks. I doubt there's room or a suitable location for me.

So, to clarify for me. The strop/hook combination solves the problem of a loaded chain around a cleat being unable to be removed if the snubber breaks?

But if my snubber breaks with my current setup, couldn't I just motor or sail forward a couple feet to unload the chain? I'm still struggling with the fundamental problem statement here.

Yes, you could. Or you could hitch another line to the chain and crank it in a bit with a winch to unload the cleated chain.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

Thanks. I doubt there's room or a suitable location for me.

So, to clarify for me. The strop/hook combination solves the problem of a loaded chain around a cleat being unable to be removed if the snubber breaks?

But if my snubber breaks with my current setup, couldn't I just motor or sail forward a couple feet to unload the chain? I'm still struggling with the fundamental problem statement here.

It is hard to imagine the stresses involved when anchored in very difficult conditions. Forces rise roughly as the square of the windspeed. The boat will be pitching, the waves will be breaking over the bow and wind will be howling. You will need at least one hand to stop sliding around. Communication with anyone at the helm is likely to be difficult, if not impossible.

If the snubber breaks (and this is the conditions where it will break) unwinding chain from around a cleat is not something I would recommend. It is an easy way to loose fingers. The advantage of rope connection on a short strop is that is can always be cut.

The conditions I have described will be rarely (and hopefully never) encountered for most sailboat owners, but systems that will still work in these extreme conditions are worth setting in place if you plan on anchoring frequently.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
But if my snubber breaks with my current setup, couldn't I just motor or sail forward a couple feet to unload the chain? I'm still struggling with the fundamental problem statement here.

I am struggling, too, because given this sentence, could you help me understand what your chain is connected to if the snubber breaks? As last we left it, the chain was wrapped around your cleat, but you seem to have agreed that either a chain stopper or at least a strop is something you agree with. Please help us understand where you're coming from here. Thx.