Dragging my Rocna - Is my technique at fault?

[noelex 77]

Snubbers are an important component of the anchoring system, but in this case with only 15 knots of wind they do almost nothing. At these wind speeds the chain catenary will provide the elasticity.

When setting the anchor, some like to use a snubber and others prefer to attach the snubber after applying the setting force via the engine. I have dived on the anchor after trying both techniques and it makes no difference in most conditions, so either is fine depending on which is more convienient. The exception is when setting the anchor in strong gusty wind, especially in substrates with poor holding. In these situations the elasticity of the snubber is helpful in evening out the force.

[rslifkin]

To me, having the snubber on before power setting is useful, as I can visually see the snubber stretch as tension comes up on the rode. It likely doesn't help the setting process, but it provides an extra visual cue of what's going on.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

6. Back down on the anchor starting around 1,000 rpm, increasing to 1,600-1,800 rpm for a minute while checking bearings to nearby land-based points

Applying some reverse force after dropping the anchor helps set the anchor, but its major purpose is a test to check the anchor's holding ability is adequate. We build up to full cruising revs for about thirty seconds. Looking at the degree of anchor bury this is equivalent to about thirty knots of wind.

Even your 1600-1800 revs should have put more force on the anchor than 15 knots of wind. I would therefore check you are detecting correctly the the anchor is not moving backwards during the setting procedure. In soft substrates anchors frequently creep slowly backwards before breaking out to the more familiar rapid drag. Detecting this creep can be difficult, but is an important sign that the anchor is struggling and if this is picked up during setting it is a sign that all is not well and remedial action needs to undertaken. Also consider upping the setting revs, which tests for higher wind speeds.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

You think this the same thing on this thread? YES This thread has 4 pages of the same "answer" mixed in with dribble/drivel.

thanks for for some more dribble/drivel, of course I understand your goal Good, then perhaps you will cease such posting!

On the other hand, it is more likely that you will not... we'll see.

Jim

[Icarus]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

Amazing the dribble an anchoring thread can produce

Indeed, very true.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

On the other hand, it is more likely that you will not... we'll see.

Jim

For a mod you sure like to do a lot of passivate aggressive snipes and to follow me around looking for opportunities. Am I not providing you with what you desire so you can complain about it?

Hope this meets your needs of complaining about me. Must be nice to have a get out of being nice pass all the time.

I now expect next time i check my profile page 6 mods will have visited it so i can get a warning etc.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by flightlead404

I do use one, yes. I have 25' of 1/2" dock line. It has an eye at one end that I attach to the anchoring cleat with a larks foot through the eye of the cleat. At the other end is a Suncor "slot style" anchor hook/grabber attached with an anchor hitch.

Before all the full scope is out I'll run the hook through the bow roller attach it to the chain and continue paying the chain out, when the bridle is fully out I'll let out another 5-8' of chain, then take a bight of the loose chain and loop it around the anchoring cleat for insurance purposes.

I would urge you to seriously reconsider this "method" of attachment.


So,you have a fine piece of line connected at one end to the chain with a hook you cannot reach, and then have the other end at the boat in a contraption (your lark's head through the cleat) that you cannot easily if ever release. And you compound that by wrapping chain around a cleat (I stopped doing that the first time I found one simply can't get a loaded chain off a cleat!) If the rope breaks that chain WILL be loaded.



I suggest that your practice is a recipe for a potential disaster, or at least the need for a knife if you ever HAVE to release that line under load. Have you ever seen what happens to the two ends of a line cut under load with a knife? They become dangerous. And please don't humor me by saying that'll never need to happen.



Look, it's your boat, so you can do what you want but I think what you describe is foolish and dangerous.


Tying a line through the base of a cleat is something ignorant boaters do, most of these I see on 20-30 foot motorboats. The hole in the cleat is NOT to thread a line through. Please use the cleat properly. If you do, and make the cleat hitch properly, you will be able to take the line off the cleat, as it was intended to be.


Then get a proper chain stopper and stop using a cleat for your chain.


All this is for YOUR safety.


Good luck.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

Tying a line through the base of a cleat is something ignorant boaters do, most of these I see on 20-30 foot motorboats. The hole in the cleat is NOT to thread a line through. Please use the cleat properly. If you do, and make the cleat hitch properly, you will be able to take the line off the cleat, as it was intended to be.

Agreed. I only know of 1 situation where feeding the line through the cleat makes sense. When attaching a spliced eye on the boat ahead of arrival at a dock, I'll typically feed it through and over, preventing the line from being dislodged from the cleat while taking it ashore. Any other time, it's a cleat hitch, or an eye over the cleat but not through the center.

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

Agreed. I only know of 1 situation where feeding the line through the cleat makes sense. When attaching a spliced eye on the boat ahead of arrival at a dock, I'll typically feed it through and over, preventing the line from being dislodged from the cleat while taking it ashore. Any other time, it's a cleat hitch, or an eye over the cleat but not through the center.

Excuse me, but even then it just screams "Toy boat, Toy boat." You perhaps should think of it in just the opposite way: instead of the "preventing the line from being dislodged," think of it as "what is the best way to be able to remove it quickly and safely?" If you tie the cleat hitch properly, the line on the boat cleat ain't goin' anywhere. How do I know this? I've been doing it for 38 years on my own boats. And even when I have one of those spliced eyes on the end of the permanent dock lines that I leave on my home dock, I simply size the eye to snugly fit over the horns of the cleat. If you feel you must, you can always tie a sacrificial small line over it, too.


Here's another scenario: you don't want to get off your boat to leave your dock. How do you do that with your dock line woven through that cleat? You simply can't.



I never get on my dock to leave my slip. I take the dock lines off my boat and lay them on the dock. When I return I pick them up with the boat hook, never getting off the boat in either direction.


I simply ask you to think this stuff through, thoroughly.

[rslifkin]

At my own slip, loops never go through the cleats. It's only ever done when traveling, and only for a line that'll be attached at the boat end first, then handed off or stepped off with (and that'll probably be the last line removed). When departing, the last line or 2 is often adjusted to be looped to the dock and back into someone's hand to allow the line to be released from the boat. At my own slip, lines stay on the dock. But I also never singlehand on this boat, so there's never a situation of removing the last line and then stepping aboard without someone already at the helm. Worst case, if I had to bail off a dock really fast without stepping off the boat to untie lines, I'd already be ditching the lines on the dock and it wouldn't matter if I just cut one free.

Oddly, around here it's rare to see a sailboat that doesn't have loops through the cleats. I've never understood why people do it so regularly and have to get those on and off every time they take the boat out.

[waterman46]

Originally Posted by malbert73

No criticism. CQR is not useless. Probably decent a lot of the time. And a Mantus would have held much better in the situation you describe. every time.

Especially since you are limited to 25 lbs I can’t see why you don’t spend a few 100 dollars on a new gen anchor. It’s been well established they are better than CQR on average

Several posts have pointed out that thè OP has a 25 kg Rocna anchor not 25 lb. I hope this thread can be closed until the OP can report back on his sucess when following correct techniques as given by many experienced cruisers here.

[CruiseN]

Snubbers I agree with.
On fast boats, most drags might occur because of pitch hence you want to dampen that natural force.

Needing a bridel system to discourage pitch.
On work horses, same goes but they're rocking with and have different views of comfort. But a bridel system will allow reduction of high non linear drag forces that step the anchor along during drag.

We aim to reduce that force.
Firstly lift of chains lay is a spring. Hence enough scope to spring without lifting shank as anchors are designed to drag into position and bite in.
Line used as a snubber attached to quarter bollards also enables an easy to access heavy spring that is on a greatly reduced distance from the fulcrum of hull during pitch. Distance multiplied with force is torque. That torque is what drags us.
Waterline attachment at bow another improvement of how to reduce pitch lever strength and retain directional pull true.

Lastly, is a big ol' oversized anchor that ain't doing much work at all on a rode of reduced strain.

[CruiseN]

Sir,
With query whether techniques are in need of tune..
Pictures illustrate.
Stink boat. Power powered flat rocker plane. Those cleats towards midship would be the cleats I'd use. Leverage length of pitch is drawn to my best guess of rockers pivot.
Reducing that leverage reduces strain on anchor equipment.
Pulpits are pulpits, that leverage useful for retrieval. Can use as anchorage yet then the scope will need be alot further.
Sailboats bring rocker pivots forward.

These boats are on web for sale, I'm just using pictures. I like that sail boats Anchorage hold techniques! Seeing boats are expensive, it would be cheap and easy enough to build rubber radii plugs that could be held in place by nice thick line on midship gunnel eye. Each side being the strongest snubbers because essentially they are the rode that has split to secure on a much reduced lever compared to a pulpit.
Once again, the gunnel eyes nearer the bow can be a secondary snubber arrangement, more so to tune point than to lift the chains drag.

I haven't a vessel but I do like the idea of humour such as Hunter Been on tow in the Jean pool.
Lovely aft state rooms, big enticing cockpits that would be a beauty to appreciate around these ways with. Being fastish vessels, I would be looking at nice usable gunnel eyes and a way to cleat without the hazards of a working deck trap. A small cost compared to the principal of the vessel yet a much kinder dance on a pick.

Many enjoyments sir, leverages that we work for rest.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by waterman46

Several posts have pointed out that thè OP has a 25 kg Rocna anchor not 25 lb. I hope this thread can be closed until the OP can report back on his sucess when following correct techniques as given by many experienced cruisers here.

Please go back and read my post (#98) more carefully before commenting as above. I was replying to the quoted material from robertfranklin who was citing his experience with a 25lb CQR

[flightlead404]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

I would urge you to seriously reconsider this "method" of attachment.


So,you have a fine piece of line connected at one end to the chain with a hook you cannot reach, and then have the other end at the boat in a contraption (your lark's head through the cleat) that you cannot easily if ever release. And you compound that by wrapping chain around a cleat (I stopped doing that the first time I found one simply can't get a loaded chain off a cleat!) If the rope breaks that chain WILL be loaded.



I suggest that your practice is a recipe for a potential disaster, or at least the need for a knife if you ever HAVE to release that line under load. Have you ever seen what happens to the two ends of a line cut under load with a knife? They become dangerous. And please don't humor me by saying that'll never need to happen.



Look, it's your boat, so you can do what you want but I think what you describe is foolish and dangerous.


Tying a line through the base of a cleat is something ignorant boaters do, most of these I see on 20-30 foot motorboats. The hole in the cleat is NOT to thread a line through. Please use the cleat properly. If you do, and make the cleat hitch properly, you will be able to take the line off the cleat, as it was intended to be.


Then get a proper chain stopper and stop using a cleat for your chain.


All this is for YOUR safety.


Good luck.

I completely see your point, and agree. Which is why I asked for the input of more experienced sailors as I'm trying to learn as much and as fast as I can.

I don't think however that you needed to be so aggressive or disparaging in your comments. Perhaps switch to decaf?

If you can do it without being so pissy, can you explain what you mean by a "proper chain stopper" or how better/more safely to attach or reconfigure my snubber?