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44'cruisingcat · 27-03-2014, 20:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by autumnbreeze27

I read a book recently on storm tactics, and the author had a lot of compelling reasons to not use a sea anchor.

In a nutshell, if you're in weather bad enough to need it, you're going to have to go up to the bow and rig it, using chain near the boat for chaffing protection, you've got to deploy it from a bag that has to be packed so it will come out underwater but not in the air, it's got to be big enough to really stop the boat, otherwise you'll go sideways like when you drag your anchor and it won't be of much benefit.

The author recommended you run off and drag a drogue or lines to slow you down if you get going too fast and the boat gets squirrely.

I'd suggest the author has never read the instructions that come with a sea anchor. The instructions tell you to "pre-deploy" the sea anchor. That is, all the anti-chafe gear, and all the lines etc are set up before you leave on a passage. The rode is cable-tied down the outside of the staunchions, to the cockpit. The sea anchor is actually deployed by throwing it from the cockpit. It opens, breaks the cable ties and starts to work.

re using an ex-military parachute. They may not be made of marine-compatible materials. I believe Richard Woods used one, and had tested it before actually needing it. When he needed it, he found the stitching had rotted, and the parachute was useless.

PelagicNomad · 27-03-2014, 22:19

I'd love to hear Hal Roth's plan if he's incapacitated and being blown towards a lee shore

autumnbreeze27 · 27-03-2014, 22:44

Good point about rigging it early. It looks like I wrote my post incorrectly, as that came across as from the book but that was all me.

The methodology in the book as conditions worsen is:
1) Reef up to force 6
2) heave-to up to force 7
3) lie a-hull up to force 8 (depending on sea conditions)
4) Run off up to force 9 (with concern about sea room)
5) sea anchor or drogue

My methodology is to avoid gale force winds.

I've got a small chute on our boat, never used it, and it might work as a drogue but before researching the topic I would have probably tried to rig it during a storm and toss it off the bow as a sea anchor, and it probably would have parted shortly there-after.

ravinracin · 28-03-2014, 00:10

It seems military surplus is getting a bad rap. Most military gear I have used is made of better materials and constructed much better than general over the counter hardware/material. I bought an army sleeping air mattress in Stockton in 1982 from the Navy having a sale. It is still in use today, great air mattress, one side insulated, large fill hole and stays full all night long. I wish I could find a couple more. I pair $5. for it. I would like to find an 8' munitions chute like the Pardey's talk about.

44'cruisingcat · 28-03-2014, 01:10

Most military gear is of excellent quality. However it's very good when used as it was intended to be used. Just as a hand grenade isn't much use as a ladder, cargo parachutes were never intended to be used as sea anchors.

BriaF · 28-03-2014, 02:38

PARACHUTES WORK

I'm an ex skydiver with 500 jumps.
Learnt useing round chutes ( C9 & T 10 )
These and others have panels missing to give
steering and forward drive.
I believe this makes unsuitable for use as
para anchors.

So you would need a cargo chute.
Without steering ability.
I think that if you can find a chute of the
correct size & configuration I know correctly
Deployed that it WILL work.
However it would be wise to buy 2 or 3.
Parachutes are very strong
Most are not designed for use in water.
They would need some TLC ie.
Rinsing in fresh water , drying
Dry storage.

I have brain stormed the idea of building
My own this is wot I have so far

Built using bulk materials bags
W 1.2 m x 1.2 m x H 1.5 m approx
These have 1-2 ton swl
Design similar to a series drogue
Use 2 to 4 in series with 10-15 m spacing.
If bulkiest don't have a hole in the bottom
Then cut one I would suggest about 200mm

Any constructive thoughts on this idea ?

PelagicNomad · 28-03-2014, 03:59

My only education with sea-anchors comes from watching "Storm Tactics", produced by the Pardeys, followed by studying the para-anchor manufacturer's websites and what's on YouTube. And that's mostly dominated by Fiorentino, who "surprisingly enough" tell you that their's is the best... I look at them whith all my pessimism and doubt some of his claims. But to my eye they are the best, and by a long way. Whatever I get now, the plan is that it'll be my spare, when it makes way for a Fiorentino.

The thing that i I like about the $125 military chutes from my original post is that I can go in and inspect them myself, before money is handed over. And I will. And it would want to look STRONG and be in GOOD condition!

Larry Pardey says manufacturers push the idea that bigger is better because they cost more. But claims 8ft is ideal for his 30ft boat. Based on that I figgure 9 ft would be about right for my 33fter. He also says that the forces exerted on them are "not much different to being in a lousy anchorage". I suspect the biggest problem with most chutes is shrouds tangling due to using an inadequate swivel. So I'm going to concentrate on making something like the ring system that Fiorentino use.

I read somewhere (probably Fiorentino or Paratech) that their chutes are 4 times stronger than the military parachutes (hmmm and I know if military chutes vary in strength, the guy making money will compare with the very weakest). But taken at face value, I'm sure the military chutes are strong enough, until something twists/tangles. That's when strength matters.

Yes the military option needs some love... It's about serving a short term purpo$e. In the long run, who can deny that stronger salt water tolerant material is better!

LakeSuperior · 28-03-2014, 06:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by BriaF

Built using bulk materials bags
W 1.2 m x 1.2 m x H 1.5 m approx
These have 1-2 ton swl
Design similar to a series drogue
Use 2 to 4 in series with 10-15 m spacing.
If bulkiest don't have a hole in the bottom
Then cut one I would suggest about 200mm

Any constructive thoughts on this idea ?

The 1-2 ton swl sounds seriously undersize for a sea anchor. Accounts I have read talk about shock loads on the order of the weight of the boat or more in a major breaking sea. If you share the load over 4 bags you are still talking only 4 to 8 tons.

The problem with designing and making your own hardware is that in many cases you do not have the benefit of lessons learned the hard way and the engineering hours that go into purpose built stuff. For example, chaff is a major failure point on sea anchors because of the high loads. Is your bow cleat up for the test?

For example, as a diver through the 70's, 80's and 90's, I didn't want to be the guy testing the new mixed gas dive tables or the brand new serial number 001 rebreather on the market. There were some hard lessons learned in those days.

I guess one could argue that some of the commercial equipment on the market is not well engineered. Look up tether testing results on Practical Sailor for example.

The middle of a major gale off-shore in a potential life threatening situation is not the place to figure out that you forgot or goofed up a detail on your sea anchor.

There are many threads on CF that discuss the benefits and limitations of sea anchors and sea anchors versus series drogues.

I guess my message here is that know what you don't know, do the research, and then do it right.

One parting shot, after doing some research I concluded that sea anchors are dangerous and that the Jorden drogues are the only way to go.

Horror Hotel · 28-03-2014, 06:16

Have you ever set a sea anchor and then got some rest? Hard to call them dangerous if you've never tried one. Their not for every situation, but sure nice when you want it.

LakeSuperior · 28-03-2014, 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horror Hotel

Have you ever set a sea anchor and then got some rest? Hard to call them dangerous if you've never tried one. Their not for every situation, but sure nice when you want it.

Maybe we are mixing apples and oranges here and my mistake. Just for the record I put drogues and sea anchors into the survival at sea bin. They have dual use I guess but CF readers should understand the context of the discussion. My discussion is wrt to survival in life threatening gales and seas.

Horror Hotel · 28-03-2014, 06:35

Nope that's what I'm talking about, survival at sea. I'm talking about being awake for 3 days, having the weather deteriorate, and rather than hove-to, set a sea anchor w/ 600' rode and head below. You propose to just keep truckin, what happens when you can't? You fail to acknowledge that at some point you are just plain done. Then deploy the sea anchor. All the sea anchor nay sayers, claim they will just keep going, that's fine . But when youve done that for 3 days, what next?

ShipShape · 28-03-2014, 06:36

After a year of research I purchased a Para-Anchor from Fiorentino yesterday. I saw them at the boat show last year and was impressed but wanted to research all my options, as well as answer the question, "Do I *really* need one?" before making the purchase.

My #1 advice is DO NOT BUY A SEA ANCHOR WITHOUT INTENSIVE RESEARCH FIRST.

Lin and Larry Pardy's "Storm Tactics" book is often mentioned so I read that first. Definitely read it but what they don't say is that their method works for THEIR boat, a small, full-keel cruiser. It does not work for large or fin keel boats! So be aware that a number of sea anchor failures you read about are because the user did not purchase and set-up the correct/best system for THEIR boat.

If I had to do the research all over again I would start with this book:
Earl Hinz "The Complete Book of Anchoring and Mooring"
A sea anchor anchors you to the water no differently than a hook anchors you to land. IMO the connection between your boat and the sea anchor is more important than the sea anchor itself - if the connection fails it doesn't matter what sea anchor you chose.

At the minimum read these books:
Victor Shane "Drag Device Data Base"
Earl Hinz "Heavy Weather Tactics"
Adlard Cole "Heavy Weather Sailing"
While you are reading the DDDD pay special attention to the accounts from boats that are similar to YOUR boat.

I also read every magazine article and story I could find and watched YouTube videos. This from Beth and Evans is a great help:

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/Heav...%203_15_12.pdf

Long story short, after a year of very careful research I chose the Fiorentino Para-Anchor. No question a factor in my decision was being able to hold one in my hand to inspect their quality (which I find outstanding), thank goodness for boat shows! Fiorentino's boat show schedule is on their web site under NEWS. PARA-ANCHOR by Fiorentino - The Original "Parachute Style" Sea Anchor

Last year Zack spent several hours answering my questions, and more than an hour with my new questions yesterday. One of the conclusions from my research was that a sea anchor needs to be 1/3 to 1/2 of the boat length; the size Para-Anchor recommended for my boat is smaller than that. Zack clearly explained to me why my research came to the wrong conclusion and why I should purchase the smaller recommended size. Fiorentino is much more concerned with keeping their customers safe than making extra profit!

No question, a good sea anchor is a "difficult" purchase because of the expense and you hope you'll never need it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by LakeSuperior

One parting shot, after doing some research I concluded that sea anchors are dangerous and that the Jorden drogues are the only way to go.

Sea anchors and drogues are two completely different pieces of equipment with different purposes and are neither comparable nor interchangeable.

.

LakeSuperior · 28-03-2014, 06:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShipShape

Sea anchors and drogues are two completely different pieces of equipment with different purposes and are neither comparable nor interchangeable.

After looking at the loading and reading accounts of deploying sea anchors in open ocean breaking wave conditions that have the potential to roll or pitch pole there is only one sane defensible choice and that is a Jordon series type drogue. They cannot pull out of the wave face and the peak loads are manageable. Not so with a sea anchor.

Not sure what you want to use your sea anchor for.