Fabricate spade anchor

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I really have no interest in a spade.
I prefer surface area working for me, not a lump of lead in the tip.
Plus lead in the tip is an over-complication that is not needed.

.

You may have no interest in a SPADE and since I’m not a SPADE retailer that’s perfectly fine by me, but you should have an interest in your anchor landing right side up so it digs in rather than drags across the bottom. That’s what the lead in the tip of the SPADE is for. How do you plan to accomplish this without weighting the tip of your anchor or do you have another way of properly balancing it so it’ll land right side up and dig in, or hadn’t you even thought of that? A Fortress anchor has great surface area for its weight and that’s super helpful in mud or soft sand, but it won’t dig into harder surfaces like a SPADE will. Also, making your anchor similar to another anchor but upsizing parts of it just to be sure might not yield a better anchor since balance is equally important to strength when determining the overall effectiveness of an anchor. The strongest anchor in the world with huge surface area won’t do you much good if it’s laying on its side or upside down. I’m sure you can build something that looks a lot like an actual anchor but the question is, will it actually act like an anchor when you really need it to? Good luck!

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

If you care to look to the left to the avatar you will see the boat and area we are in

I did see a big bow.

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I run 68 kg Supreme now and if making my own version of would do a larger, 80 to 90 kg version just for the hell of it.
Steels cheap, hours to build would be close enough to the same

You may be aware that the shank on your Manson is made from high tensile steel with an 800 MPa rating. (that's what she said) You might also be aware that almost all anchor failures in various tests involve bent shanks. Assuming you fabricate your shank from similar steel that has been hardened/quenched, what filler material do you plan to use on the welds? How will you preheat and what will you do to address residual stress? More heat treatment?

I'm not asking to be snarky, but to actually learn more. I do hope that you post results/pics if you go forward with this project.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

You may have no interest in a SPADE and since I’m not a SPADE retailer that’s perfectly fine by me, but you should have an interest in your anchor landing right side up so it digs in rather than drags across the bottom. That’s what the lead in the tip of the SPADE is for. How do you plan to accomplish this without weighting the tip of your anchor or do you have another way of properly balancing it so it’ll land right side up and dig in, or hadn’t you even thought of that?

Clearly you have not done any research into other anchor types and while you claim not to be a retailer, your constant capitalising of spade shows you are somewhat of a fanboy.

None of the other new gen anchors that I am aware of have lead tips.
All perform very well.
How do they do it?

Report back when you have done some research and found the very obvious answer

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by cyan

I did see a big bow.


You may be aware that the shank on your Manson is made from high tensile steel with an 800 MPa rating. (that's what she said) You might also be aware that almost all anchor failures in various tests involve bent shanks. Assuming you fabricate your shank from similar steel that has been hardened/quenched, what filler material do you plan to use on the welds? How will you preheat and what will you do to address residual stress? More heat treatment?

I'm not asking to be snarky, but to actually learn more. I do hope that you post results/pics if you go forward with this project.

Yes I am aware
let google help you
https://www.google.com/search?newwin...13.T8lwiSGV_zA

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

let google help you

Yeah, thanks for that. The google webs have lots of advice in that department, but more helpful might have been your thoughts specifically regarding welding the anchor you proposed.

In addition to welding tips, the google webs have some good anchor tests. One thing that comes up in the SV Panope test is the fact that there is a design dichotomy among anchor shanks:
One goal is to have the shank as strong as possible, as this is where the failures typically occur.
The opposing goal is to have the shank as LIGHT as possible so that it does not unbalance the fluke. The heavier the shank, the lower the tip percentage and the more likely the whole thing will tend to tilt to the side rather than set.

An over-built shank will under-perform.
An under-designed shank will fail.
Finding this goldilocks zone of "just right" might be hit and miss, by simply grabbing scraps laying around the shop. You could get lucky, or you could do the math first.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by cyan

An over-built shank will under-perform.
An under-designed shank will fail.
Finding this goldilocks zone of "just right" might be hit and miss, by simply grabbing scraps laying around the shop. You could get lucky, or you could do the math first.

Or I could just look at one that's commercially available and simply do same same but different.
Why over complicate things by re engineering something that's already been done.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Or I could just look at one that's commercially available and simply do same same but different.
Why over complicate things by re engineering something that's already been done.

Well now we are on the same page.
Your earlier design plan sounded much less likely to succeed at those finesse parts that have already been engineered for highest strength with lowest weight:
"good ol' fashioned belt and braces overbuild"

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Clearly you have not done any research into other anchor types and while you claim not to be a retailer, your constant capitalising of spade shows you are somewhat of a fanboy.

None of the other new gen anchors that I am aware of have lead tips.
All perform very well.
How do they do it?

Report back when you have done some research and found the very obvious answer

Obviously, as you say, the other way to help an anchor roll over if it lands upside down is to add a rollbar like the Rocna or Manson supreme or Bugel, but those are more difficult to fit into some bow rollers and they don’t penetrate hard bottoms or reset quite as well as a SPADE. That seems to me to be giving up quite a lot just to avoid putting some lead in the tip.

As for the capitalization thing, I really have no connection to SPADE other than being a very satisfied owner and that’s just the way I’ve always seen it spelled, in capital letters. I always supposed it was an acronym for something but I never knew what, and if it bothers you I can just refer it as a Spade.

Now that I’ve satisfied you that I do realize other anchors have roll bars, but while we’re recommending that each other do some research, maybe before you get out your welding torch you should read up on early attempts by all the major new gen anchor manufacturers. I’m sure they felt like they had it all figured out on their first attempt too, but after they tested their anchors in actual anchoring conditions, their anchors gradually evolved into what they now sell. Maybe you’ll be different though, and you’ll hit a home run your first time at bat. I wouldn’t want to bet my boat (or life) on it though.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by cyan

Well now we are on the same page.
Your earlier design plan sounded much less likely to succeed at those finesse parts that have already been engineered for highest strength with lowest weight:
"good ol' fashioned belt and braces overbuild"

That comment was in relation to the weld size.
i thought I had made it pretty clear that I was doing a same same but different version of a supreme/bugel

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

. I wouldn’t want to bet my boat (or life) on it though.

Of course not because you clearly dont have the skillset to do it.

Those that can do
Those that can't stamp their feet and rubbish those that can on internet forums.

[thinwater]

Quote: "Clearly you have not done any research into other anchor types and while you claim not to be a retailer, your constant capitalising of spade shows you are somewhat of a fanboy."

Quote: "As for the capitalization thing, I really have no connection to SPADE other than being a very satisfied owner and that’s just the way I’ve always seen it spelled, in capital letters. I always supposed it was an acronym for something but I never knew what, and if it bothers you I can just refer it as a Spade."

[Societé de Production d'Accastillage et Divers Equipements]

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by jtsailjt

Obviously, as you say, the other way to help an anchor roll over if it lands upside down is to add a rollbar like the Rocna or Manson supreme or Bugel, but those are more difficult to fit into some bow rollers and they don’t penetrate hard bottoms or reset quite as well as a SPADE. That seems to me to be giving up quite a lot just to avoid putting some lead in the tip.

.

I would not be making them for you I am making them for me
My vessel has no issue with the roll bar, the supreme has one now.

As for the difficulty resetting have you actually compared them or are you just believing what the spade blurb says?

I live aboard at anchor and not once in 2 years of use have we had any difficulty setting or resetting our roll bar anchor, ever, in various bottom types and conditions
Never budged even in 80 knots.

The lead in the tip requires more plate, more manufacture, more welding, melting and casting in of lead and removal of lead for regalv.
Like i said, more trouble than its worth especially when the anchor I currently use has proven itself beyond a shadow of a doubt.

You keep doing what you are doing and I'll do the same.
See ya.

[cyan]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

That comment was in relation to the weld size.
i thought I had made it pretty clear that I was doing a same same but different version of a supreme/bugel

Not clear to me. It sounded more like you correctly identified the weakest part of the new gen anchors (the shank) and planned on beefing it up like a real man. That would alter the balance, and the balance is key. Thanks for clarifying.

I'm not sure why you are rejecting the Spade idea of extra tip weight. Is your big heavy boat only anchored on soft bottoms? The new gen anchors all seem to have a roll bar or a weighted tip. The Spade looks to reset a bit quicker on mid-sized anchor tests, but perhaps the large sized anchors are different.

Steel weighs 13% less in sea water and tip weight is important, no? Hell aluminum nearly floats. Spade-style lead is more dense but of course it is useless structurally... have you worked with tungsten? I'm not familiar with the term "trade qualified" but there is more than one engineer on here who would be cheering for your efforts.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Of course not because you clearly dont have the skillset to do it.

Those that can do
Those that can't stamp their feet and rubbish those that can on internet forums.

There are a few of those,

Beat you death with ******** they have pulled out of books, Or Google, Etc,

Practically, They dont have a clue,

Its simple, If you cant make it your self, Buy it,

[jtsailjt]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Of course not because you clearly dont have the skillset to do it.

Those that can do
Those that can't stamp their feet and rubbish those that can on internet forums.

I’m really not trying to “rubbish” you at all, just trying to point out that there’s more to building an effective anchor than meets the eye.

I also don’t base my opinions on anything Spade (spelled without caps just for you) puts out because all manufacturers say their anchors are the best. There’s a thread right on this forum where a username of Panope did some pretty amazing and completely unbiased research on how various anchors set and reset and a good amount of what he learned wasn’t entirely intuitive. You really should check out his videos. Then there’s Practical Sailor and they have some good info on how various anchors act in actual anchoring conditions and how a seemingly subtle change can make a huge difference in effectiveness. Another great, unbiased site (subscription reqd) is Morgan’s Cloud where John goes into great detail regarding why they chose a Spade as their best bower. Then I’ve read the reader comments on all these sites where users discuss the claims made and how they compare with actual practice. Additionally, I have my own personal experience which has not caused me to doubt what I have read from these various sources regarding anchor performance and I also have been very impressed with the way Spade actually stands behind their product.

Yes, I realize I don’t have the skill set to weld up an anchor that would compare favorably with any of the top new gen anchors but I do have the skill set to understand that anchor design is much more nuanced than it appears to be. My “skillset” as an engineer and sailor and weigher of many others (whom I respect) opinions tells me that taking an existing design and beefing it up here and there is bound to result in some unintended consequences that may not become obvious to you until you’re in extreme conditions. I’m not picking on you in particular but just want to urge caution to anyone considering doing this. I don’t doubt your skillset as a welder but it takes much more than that and it’s very tough to compete with the combined wisdom of the leading anchor manufacturers design engineers and what their R&D has told them. If you make an exact copy it may be not quite as exact as it appears to be and it’s also illegal, and if you do make any changes, intentional or not, they might well hurt your anchors effectiveness in actual anchoring conditions. I’ve accepted nobody is going to change your mind but others who read this may check out some of the sources I’ve mentioned and hopefully may profit from doing that. So to you I can only say good luck!