General consensus on Ultra Anchor

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Ultra Marine West

The owner of Fleming, Mr. Tony Fleming, bought two same sizes ULTRA and the best known roll-bar anchor which you also have and put them on the same size two Flemings and used them in both the same places. After his first-hand experiences, he decided to make the ULTRA standard on all Fleming boats, and they have been so happy by that decision.

It is not because they couldn’t position the second anchor as a roll-bared one; it looks like it was because of the real-life performance difference between the ULTRA and that anchor with roll-bar, as noted by all ULTRA users here.

Marketing meets reality.

I don't see Mr Fleming's comments in the "Reviews" section of your website. Did he actually find it to be better performing, or are you assuming that? Maybe it's just better looking?

I don't doubt the Ultra performs well, notwithstanding the photographic proof in this thread that the Ultra is not infallible. My real-life experience with that other anchor with the roll bar is that it performs extremely well in most conditions, but I am fully aware of its potential limitations. Anecdotal experience lacks scientific rigour - side-by-side testing in a wide spectrum of controlled conditions, by a third-party would be a lot more convincing.

[Ultra Marine West]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

I don't see Mr Fleming's comments in the "Reviews" section of your website. Did he actually find it to be better performing, or are you assuming that? Maybe it's just better looking?

I don't doubt the Ultra performs well, notwithstanding the photographic proof in this thread that the Ultra is not infallible. My real-life experience with that other anchor with the roll bar is that it performs extremely well in most conditions, but I am fully aware of its potential limitations. Anecdotal experience lacks scientific rigour - side-by-side testing in a wide spectrum of controlled conditions, by a third-party would be a lot more convincing.

There is no photographic proof in this thread showing that the ULTRA is not infallible. There is a note saying the sea bottom there could be sand over a rock where no anchor has a chance to hold. There is instead a video proof in that thread that ULTRA can even hold with 1:2 scope if the bottom is not sand over rock.

On the other hand, I don't say that ULTRA is not infallible. It is an anchor in the end. I only say that I believe it is the best option for most of you today, and as a sales rep I cannot tell otherwise. So it is up to you to decide if that is a good option for you or not.

Do you think that Mr. Tony Fleming would still choose the ULTRA because it is beautiful if it hadn’t performed better than the other anchor with roll-bar? Could he put the security of his customers behind and make his choices by the beauty of the products?

If you want, we can write another story with you. We can send you the same size ULTRA Anchor with the size of the roll-bar anchor you have, and you can freely do side-by-side testing in any way you want, then you can share your experiences with that forum members.

My offer to you is clearly as below;

-We will send you that same size ULTRA by paying the transport cost.
-We will not Invoice you for 12 months.
-In that 12 months, you can test the ULTRA against the roll-bar anchor you have and share your thoughts freely in that forum.
-After 12 months, we will take it back from you again by paying the transport costs, or you will pay for the ULTRA you have.

What do you say?

Thanks

Erkutay Yucel
Ultra Marine / Ultra Marine West
Director of Sales and Marketing / Owner's Representative

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Originally Posted by Ultra Marine West

There is no photographic proof in this thread showing that the ULTRA is not infallible. There is a note saying the sea bottom there could be sand over a rock where no anchor has a chance to hold. There is instead a video proof in that thread that ULTRA can even hold with 1:2 scope if the bottom is not sand over rock.

Please note the photos above, two Ultras in two different areas, both apparently having difficulty setting. It was noted that it could have been sand over rock, but unverified, and that other anchors in the area had no issues.

Do you think that Mr. Tony Fleming would still choose the ULTRA because it is beautiful if it hadn’t performed better than the other anchor with roll-bar? Could he put the security of his customers behind and make his choices by the beauty of the products?

Perhaps if it performed as well, or at least to spec. It may have fit better on the bow, or just looked better. I don't wish to put words in his mouth - or make assumptions about his motivations.

If you want, we can write another story with you. We can send you the same size ULTRA Anchor with the size of the roll-bar anchor you have, and you can freely do side-by-side testing in any way you want, then you can share your experiences with that forum members.

My offer to you is clearly as below;

-We will send you that same size ULTRA by paying the transport cost.
-We will not Invoice you for 12 months.
-In that 12 months, you can test the ULTRA against the roll-bar anchor you have and share your thoughts freely in that forum.
-After 12 months, we will take it back from you again by paying the transport costs, or you will pay for the ULTRA you have.

What do you say?

Thanks

Erkutay Yucel
Ultra Marine / Ultra Marine West
Director of Sales and Marketing / Owner's Representative

Well that is a very fair offer. I'm not in a position to act on it at this moment (off adding to the cruising kitty), and to be completely honest, even if it does test well against the incumbent, I'd be hard-pressed justifying such a pricey upgrade. Would you consider extending the offer to any of the members that have been testing anchors - Panope, Noelex? Maybe Dockhead would like to give it a go?

[Ultra Marine West]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Well that is a very fair offer. I'm not in a position to act on it at this moment (off adding to the cruising kitty), and to be completely honest, even if it does test well against the incumbent, I'd be hard-pressed justifying such a pricey upgrade. Would you consider extending the offer to any of the members that have been testing anchors - Panope, Noelex? Maybe Dockhead would like to give it a go?

I can extend the offer to any forum member who is interested in doing it but I still prefer you do it.

I can help you on the price side, as well. If you send the anchor back to us, we will sell it with 25% discount as Pre-Owned through our website.

So if you like the ULTRA and don't want to send it back after testing, we can give that 25% discount to you, as well.

You can purchase the anchor you have as a Pre-Owned by even being its original owner.

What do you say?

[Smokeys Kitchen]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

While I agree with the general implication of this, do note that IIRC none of the comparisons were between Spade and Ultra, and Spade is the only other commonly available non-rollbar modern anchor. I'd be interested in any head to head comparisons between this pair of designs.

Jim

FWIW - I never thought I would disagree with Jim - but here goes. I think the Vulcan, which I have, is just as commonly available as the original Rocna, Spade, or Ultra. At least they were so at the Seattle boat show and seem to be here in the PNW. I consider the Vulcan an example of a modern, non-rollbar anchor, and it has worked well for us.

[Ultra Marine West]

Originally Posted by Smokeys Kitchen

FWIW - I never thought I would disagree with Jim - but here goes. I think the Vulcan, which I have, is just as commonly available as the original Rocna, Spade, or Ultra. At least they were so at the Seattle boat show and seem to be here in the PNW. I consider the Vulcan an example of a modern, non-rollbar anchor, and it has worked well for us.

We can do the same test deal with a Spade/Vulcan user who would consider upgrading to ULTRA if it does better than Spade/Vulcan, as well.

-We will send same size ULTRA with the Spade/Vulcan he has by paying the transport cost.
-We will not Invoice for 12 months.
-In that 12 months, he will test the ULTRA against the Spade/Vulcan and share his thoughts freely in that forum.
-After 12 months, we will take it back from him again by paying the transport costs, or we will give him a 25% discount on the ULTRA letting him purchase the ULTRA as Pre-Owned by being its original owner.

So we are looking for two forum members who has a roll-bar anchor and a Spade or Vulcan willing to upgrade to ULTRA if ULTRA performs better than the anchors they have.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Ultra Marine West

. . . We can show Lloyd's holding power requests for certification to give an idea. Lloyds certificates the highest holding powered anchors as HHP or SHHP. These anchors hold minimum 4 times than the normal anchor.

ULTRA easily holds more than 4 times the normal anchor, and it also exceeds this easily together with increased forces.

Wait a minute -- I thought we already agreed that this is a "low bar". NOT indeed 4 times more than a "normal anchor", but 4 times more than a stockless anchor, an anchor so poor that it is not used at all on yachts. Any modern anchor will meet this standard if the maker is willing to pay for the certification; it is deceptive to claim that meeting this standard shows that this anchor is better than any other new generation anchor.

[NewportGuy]

I used an Ultra with all chain rode on my 38 Tiara Open for about 6 or 7 years, mostly around Catalina and the Channel Islands. My experience with setting and holding was excellent. One particular night at Santa Cruise is etched in my memory. Everyone around me was dragging. We held fast and I remember the confidence I developed in the Ultra in that situation.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Again you're making an entirely arbitrary statement. The ideal anchor fits your boat's particular arrangement and provides superior performance under all conditions, and costs next to nothing - such a beast doesn't exist, so we compromise where we are most comfortable. Everything boaty is a compromise.

The "ideal bow anchor" doesn't have a roll-bar only if that type won't fit. Mantus/Rocna et al plainly state that fit should be ensured before purchase and provide fitment guides, cardboard mock-up instructions and the like. If they fit, then they might be the ideal anchor. Roll-bar anchors fit on my bow, so that has absolutely no bearing on the suitability of that type for me. Others may have an issue, and that is why they offer other types. No one single anchor performs perfectly in all bottom types - boaty/compromise.

Actually I agree with the Ultra guy about roll bars.


But the main drawback of roll bar anchors is not indeed fitting the bow roller -- it's BALANCE. The ONLY advantage of roll bar anchors is that they are cheap to make because you don't have to ballast them. Roll bar anchors come with several disadvantages -- the roll bar can clog, the roll bar can cause resistance to the anchor diving, and an anchor without ballast will not be balanced to stay oriented towards the bottom -- which is why it needs the roll bar to flip it around.


I know this not just from theory, but I used a 55kg Rocna for several years before going back to Spade, and I've used smaller Rocnas on other boats. The Rocna is an excellent anchor -- don't get me wrong -- it works very well in most circumstances and is worlds better in all ways than plow anchors. But the thing which really bothered me was the balance -- it wanted to come into the bow roller upside down, so I needed a swivel, which brings other problems, and I always had to flip it around with a boat hook, a real PITA in choppy water with 55kg swinging around. I still have some dents to show for those adventures.



A ballasted anchor will naturally orient itself in the right direction, so suddenly I didn't need a swivel anymore, and bringing the anchor up no longer required a boat hook. And setting is more aggressive because the anchor doesn't ever end up on its back waiting for the roll bar to flip it around.



So I think there are some quite significant advantages of ballasted, non-roll bar anchors, albeit at a cost since these are more expensive to make.



Now it does look to me like Mantus have made a fundamental improvement to the idea of a roll bar anchor with the much thinner hoop and much wider base of the hoop. I haven't used a Mantus myself, but from everything I've heard this looks looks like a step forward in evolution of the roll bar anchor, reducing or eliminating some of the drawbacks.


And again, I'm not saying Rocna is a bad anchor. It's certainly a very good anchor. But the roll bar does bring with it some drawbacks.

[Ultra Marine West]

Let's make it common and do this test deal against any modern anchors.

We are claiming that we are doing better than all of them, so let's see it all together here if we are right or wrong.

Anyone who has a new generation anchor such as Rocna, Vulcan, Spade, Manson Supreme, Mantus Anchors, Excel, etc.

-We will send the same size ULTRA by paying the transport cost.
-We will not Invoice for 12 months.
-In those 12 months, you will test the ULTRA against the anchor you have in any way you want and share your thoughts freely in that forum.
-After 12 months, we will take the ULTRA back again by paying the transport costs, or we will give you a 25% discount on the ULTRA you had so that we will let you purchase the ULTRA as Pre-Owned by being its original owner.

We can even do everything openly from here; you can send us the picture of the ULTRA once you have it, and you can share your thoughts here in any way you want after you find a chance to do a side by side test with the ULTRA and your anchor.

We said we did something extraordinary, and we claimed to be your best option, so here we stand by everything we said.

There is no more verbaility of a sales rep trying to explain you why ULTRA is better than the others.

Please tell that opportunity anyone you think could give this a go but hadn't read these threads so far.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Well that is a very fair offer. I'm not in a position to act on it at this moment (off adding to the cruising kitty), and to be completely honest, even if it does test well against the incumbent, I'd be hard-pressed justifying such a pricey upgrade. Would you consider extending the offer to any of the members that have been testing anchors - Panope, Noelex? Maybe Dockhead would like to give it a go?

That's a very nice offer. I would do it, and compare the performance against Spade and Rocna on my own boat this summer.

[Ultra Marine West]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Wait a minute -- I thought we already agreed that this is a "low bar". NOT indeed 4 times more than a "normal anchor", but 4 times more than a stockless anchor, an anchor so poor that it is not used at all on yachts. Any modern anchor will meet this standard if the maker is willing to pay for the certification; it is deceptive to claim that meeting this standard shows that this anchor is better than any other new generation anchor.

Yes, we agreed. It is a "low bar". That part started to become boring for all of us. A new generation anchor has to be compared to another new generation anchor. It looks like you have a Spade. Let's do the Spade against ULTRA test deal with you. Is that okay?

[Panope]

I'll do it too. I have (so far) tested Rocna, Manson Supreme, Mantus, Spade, Excel, Sarca, Fortress, Bruce, Delta, CQR, and other anchors. Eventually, I hope to cover all legacy and new, top rated anchors.

Steve

[Ultra Marine West]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That's a very nice offer. I would do it, and compare the performance against Spade and Rocna on my own boat this summer.

Perfect. Probably we wrote these last ones at the same time. The only issue we have with that test deal is that the users has to be in the USA or Turkey. As per our distribution agreements for the other parts of the world, I cannot act on behalf of them.

Your boat is somewhere in the USA, isn't she?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Ultra Marine West

Yes, we agreed. It is a "low bar". That part started to become boring for all of us. A new generation anchor has to be compared to another new generation anchor. It looks like you have a Spade. Let's do the Spade against ULTRA test deal with you. Is that okay?

It's a deal. It's a nice offer and I will post in detail about my experiences. Since I have considerable experience with both Spade and Rocna on this boat, I will be able to compare to both.



I'll PM you.