How Close Is Too Close?

[Don C L]

While I typically don't set any trip line buoys, I have in the past in anchorages I knew to have errant rocks, and on at least 2 occassions I was glad a I did. On one of those times, I can't recall why, the engine was not working. So I had to drop the whole shebang (I have rope/chain combo) and sail up to the buoy and snag it as I went by going upwind. The momentum of the boat was easily enough to pull the anchor out backwards. I let her tack and heave-to and then let her wallow in the anchorage while I retrieved anchor then chain and then line, which took a while to store back in the locker. Fortunately there was no one downwind of me. So, I do like Dockhead's technique, though I'd have to give it some thought and be on my game to be sure neither the trip line nor the rope section of rode (all chain users have less concern here) get caught in the prop. You would be taking up on trip line as you move forward over the anchor, but leaving a good length of rode still on the bottom. I can see that is fine. The thing is you have to be sure you can get upwind of the anchor sufficiently to be able to pull it out. If you cannot get upwind of it and you have to dump the whole thing (anchor and rode) for some emergency (strong wind or current and/or engine failure,) it is nice (but I agree not necessarily necessary since the long trip line is still there) to be able to come back to a buoy that is attached to the back end of the anchor and not the end of the rode. But now that I think of it, if I had to dump it, I could still tie a buoy off to the (very long) trip line separately and be able to sail or motor back up to it later and retrieve it. Granted, these scenarios are uncommon. However to Jim's case, I wonder if releasing the rode (all chain?) from the boat and then retrieving it all backwards from the tripped anchor buoy might have been able to recover the whole shooting match?

[Jim Cate]

However to Jim's case, I wonder if releasing the rode (all chain?) from the boat and then retrieving it all backwards from the tripped anchor buoy might have been able to recover the whole shooting match?

Well, in neither of my losses was the anchor buoyed... unfortunately!

But if the chain is well caught, as in the Skeleton bay incident I reported, wouldn't have helped. I tried with a pry bar and could not budge the chain where it was jammed in the rock. BecauseI was able to dive in that case, I recovered the anchor and some chain from each end. If I had been willing to try to cut the chain on each side of the jam, about fifty feet down in icy water, I could have recovered nearly all of it. Couldn't talk myself into that, though, being a woose (wuse?) about cold and all!

Jim

[senormechanico]

in the USA, it's spelled WUSS.

When it comes to icy water, I'm also a WUSS !

[thinwater]

^^ Actually, it is spelled "poor planning." A wet suit or dry suit is standard equipment in cold water areas.

I shouldn't talk. The only anchor I ever lost was the result of forgetting to shackle the leader to the rode after changing anchors in deep, brown water. Bye-bye.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

Agreed on the added dangers of a trip line buoy. Too many negatives for general use.

And this is why I like CF … I keep learning new ideas. I’ve never tried yours and Dockhead’s approach. I’ll give it a try next time. Are there any concerns or issues about getting the trip line tangled with the anchor rode? I assume you’re still attaching the trip line to the forward side of the anchor, correct?

Depends on which anchor I'm using. Haven't done this yet with my Manson and if I recall there's no attachment point for a trip line so would attach a line to the roll bar. One anchor I used (sorry forget which one) had a hole in the shank just next to the flukes that was I assume made for attaching a trip line.

Another option is the Manson with a slotted shank but I have to confess I'm not a fan of that design.

Only done this a couple of times and so far no problem with the line tangling with the chain.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by thinwater

^^ Actually, it is spelled "poor planning." A wet suit or dry suit is standard equipment in cold water areas.

I shouldn't talk. The only anchor I ever lost was the result of forgetting to shackle the leader to the rode after changing anchors in deep, brown water. Bye-bye.

Well, I have a wet suit, and a weight belt and mask, fins and snorkel... but I have to confess I'm not the free diver I once was.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

A dumb idea which creates many more problems and hazards than it solves. Can be lethal to dinghy occupants at night if they get spilled into the water.

Looks like I started something.

I agree with Mike, CF is a place to learn good habits and bin the bad ideas. Trouble is.... not everyone seems to see things this way.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Oh... the time Ann mentioned where we buoyed the anchor whilst awaiting a cyclone, I did so because I'd set a LOT of chain... all 280 feet that we had on board. In ~25 feet of depth, we were a long way from the anchor, and I wanted both others and myself to know where it was. Seemed reasonable at the time, still does today!

Seems entirely sensible to me Jim (& Ann). I completely agree there are good and valid reasons to use an anchor buoy. I’ve done it on occasion. I’d probably do it in your scenario.

Originally Posted by skipmac

Depends on which anchor I'm using. Haven't done this yet with my Manson and if I recall there's no attachment point for a trip line so would attach a line to the roll bar. One anchor I used (sorry forget which one) had a hole in the shank just next to the flukes that was I assume made for attaching a trip line.

Another option is the Manson with a slotted shank but I have to confess I'm not a fan of that design.

Only done this a couple of times and so far no problem with the line tangling with the chain.

My Rocna has a forward attachment point. The roll bar would be a second choice for me. I’ll have to give this method a try the next time I’m on the hook (which sadly is still months away).

I’ve never yet lost an anchor, although we’ve come close a few times. Have hauled up small trees and waterlogged trunks a few times. Got wrapped around a big rock another. Some of these events took hours to sort out, but so far so good. Ironically, I don’t think I’ve ever needed to use my trip line on the relatives rare times I’ve set it up. Comforting though when you look down and see all those deadheads.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

. . . I’ve never tried yours and Dockhead’s approach. I’ll give it a try next time. Are there any concerns or issues about getting the trip line tangled with the anchor rode? I assume you’re still attaching the trip line to the forward side of the anchor, correct?

I have rarely felt the need for a trip line, so can't speak from tons of experience, but I never had any tangling problems when I did use one. A cable tie every 10 meters to keep the trip line someplace near the chain. Some people use floating polyprop for this, but that seems to me like asking for trouble.

One technique I've used successfully to trip a stuck anchor, when I didn't have a trip line rigged, is to tie a loose bowline around the chain and run it down to the anchor, then pull out the anchor in the opposite direction from how it was set. Not as good - because of the risk of not getting the noose to the base of the shank, and because the base of the shank is not as far forward, but may be good enough. Was good enough when I needed it.

And yes, if you're in a really deserted place where you really won't bother anyone, an anchor float may be the best solution. I'll be in the Swedish and Finnish archipelagos this summer, where the bottom is strewn with boulders, and you never share an anchorage with even one other boat. A float and trip line might be useful there.


Another technique which seemed really boneheaded to me at first glance, but which I noticed ALL the locals in Dover harbour were using, is to shackle the anchor rode not to the shank, but to the CROWN of the anchor, then use heavy cable ties to attach the chain to the end of the shank. That just seems like asking to end up un-anchored. In fairness, perhaps they are using that only for anchoring during the day while fishing, which would be more reasonable.

[noelex 77]

If you do use a floating anchor buoy, I would very strongly recommend putting a weak link in the line just below the float.

Snagging the anchor float on your own boat is not rare. If this happens, you will drag in very light wind. Don't ask how I know this . It also eliminates the problem of another boat picking up the float thinking it is a mooring or another boat swing into the float and snagging it.

If the weak link is only a bit below the float, with a little slack in the rope it is easy to attach a strong line prior to the weak link and still use the line to drag the anchor out backwards if needed.

As other have said, an anchor float is a little antisocial so avoid one if possible.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

I agree with Mike, CF is a place to learn good habits and bin the bad ideas. Trouble is.... not everyone seems to see things this way.

The problem is, not everyone agrees on what are good habits and bad ideas. Some people seem to have a hard time understanding that there are many different boats out there, many different parts of the world and many different boating styles. They have a difficult time understanding that what works best for them might not be appropriate for someone else.

The worst part, of course, is that they seem to feel that anyone who doesn't agree that their way is best is ignorant or worse. They seem to think that they are God's gift to boaters and the absolute authority on any boating subject.

They need to understand that boaters (everyone, really) will read how they think it should be done but in the end, they are going to do it the way that works best for them.

I posted it once but I'll post it again: Unless you're wearing a badge and a gun, trying to control other people's behavior is doomed to failure and it's going to be very frustrating for you.

In the real world, if someone wants to use a trip line or seven to one scope when anchored, there is nothing you can do about it. Deal with it or move to another anchorage.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by rwidman

In the real world, if someone wants to use a trip line or seven to one scope when anchored, there is nothing you can do about it. Deal with it or move to another anchorage.

As you suggest, it is often best to move, but most boating people are willing to help. Go over and talk to them. Simple.

Scopes need to be similar in a crowded anchorage and swinging over some else's anchor float is a potential hazard for both boats. So some cooperation is necessary.

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by rwidman

The problem is, not everyone agrees on what are good habits and bad ideas. Some people seem to have a hard time understanding that there are many different boats out there, many different parts of the world and many different boating styles. They have a difficult time understanding that what works best for them might not be appropriate for someone else.

The worst part, of course, is that they seem to feel that anyone who doesn't agree that their way is best is ignorant or worse. They seem to think that they are God's gift to boaters and the absolute authority on any boating subject.

They need to understand that boaters (everyone, really) will read how they think it should be done but in the end, they are going to do it the way that works best for them.

I posted it once but I'll post it again: Unless you're wearing a badge and a gun, trying to control other people's behavior is doomed to failure and it's going to be very frustrating for you.

In the real world, if someone wants to use a trip line or seven to one scope when anchored, there is nothing you can do about it. Deal with it or move to another anchorage.

I don't think anyone has (seriously) advocated becoming the anchoring enforcement agent of the harbor. As I recall, most of the reasonable replies suggest a polite discussion with one's neighbors or moving your own boat. No need for a badge or gun.

Also I see lots of facts and experience regarding buoys as well as some opinions. I don't see a common theme of this is the only way, all harbors and anchoring situations are the same, don't ever do this or that. Quite the contrary I see comments that suggest using the appropriate methods for the anchoring situation.

[steve77]

Originally Posted by Paul L

As far as I can tell it is nationality dependent.

I was trying to think of a tactful way to say the same thing.

Cheers!

Steve

[buzzstar]

I do have a slightly different take on the arguments against anchor buoys and the danger to dinghies in the dark. First, the dinks, or at least their operators, need to keep a lookout, the sea is full of the unexpected. Second, should we sink the buoys in mooring fields because of the dangers to dinghy traffic? Obviously, not. Appropriate caution applies to all, no unnecessary buoys, but do not proceed faster than you ability to see ahead.