How to solve weakness in Lofrans Tigres windlass

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by nmccubbin

Thanks to all who have provided thoughtful answers.
Those with experience, particularly Sailing Harmonie, have made it clear that the Tigres is fully capable of working well, although our one is wimpy.

For clarity, I have a Lofrans Cayman, which is slightly smaller but has many of the same parts.

We had already tried most of the suggestions to no avail.

The contactor is new. Voltage drop across it is 0.1 volt
Total cable run is under 10 feet. Half is AWG 00 and the remainder is AWG 0000 All lugs are crimped and soldered.

I think your problems are somewhere else. It is a common misconception that all DC motors draw more current when the applied voltage is reduced. In reality, this is only true for shunt-wound motors. Since your motor is not shunt wound, the high current draw cannot be caused by voltage drop.

One issue is that the windlass draws 40 amps, spinning freely and quietly, with the chain off the gypsy. I have asked Lofrans about this on three ocasions but never received a reply. Could someone please measure the current drawn at no load?

My boat is hauled out but I can measure it this coming weekend when I am installing new ground tackle. Since the motor on the Tigress is larger than the Cayman you would have a somewhat higher no-load current, probably by about 50%, but that might give you a starting point.


In any case, from long experience with similar DC motors, I believe that 40 amps is probably about right.

Oil is mentioned. The Lofrans manual discusses changing the oil, but i cannot find any recommendation in the manual on what type. I used 90 SAE gear oil. Is that OK?

It is OK, but don't take my word for it:


https://www.lofrans.com/ajax/download.FILE.php?documents[]=25

Can anyone tell me the voltage at the motor terminals when the windlass is working hard.

Typically around 11-12 volts, depending on the installation.

We are laying up in Hiva-Oa in the Marquesas on 25th April. I have to decide what to bring back in the Fall. I would buy a new motor in the US, if I was sure that is the issue.
I could get a new battery here ($$$$) but not before haulout, so no way to test it under load.

I don't think the battery is your problem. Either the motor is shot or something is sticking or binding.


My advice to you would be to bring your motor back to the USA in your luggage. It is easy to remove and compact, albeit heavy. Then you'll have until fall to find a really good automotive electric shop that can test it thoroughly and recommend any repairs or, if warranted, replacement. If a good shop can't find anything wrong with it, you'll know you have gearcase problems of one kind or another.

[noelex 77]

Some of the commercial windlasses publish more detailed data on expected current draw vs performance.

Below is the graph for my windlass. Note it is a powerful 4000lb windlass running at 24v.
Nevertheless, scaling this graph may give you some idea of what numbers to expect. This type of data is not readily available for typical yacht windlasses.

Note that windlass specifications are very nominal. The real current draw as the windlass approaches full load are nothing like the specifications. This windlass will draw almost 10,000w at full load.

Good luck finding the problem.

[Jammer]

The link to the Lofrans website does work but must be cut-and-pasted into the URL bar because of the special characters.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Erm, point of order, current is proportional to shaft torque on a (properly working) series wound motor and is mostly independent of voltage. Voltage only affects speed.

Of course, but you are missing the point... If the battery can not hold voltage as the current increases things get worse and worse as the motor slows and approaches stall. Lower speed, demands more torque for the same power input. They are all connected.

The voltage drops BECAUSE the torque load current demand exceeds what the battery can generate.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by nmccubbin

Thanks to all who have provided thoughtful answers.
Those with experience, particularly Sailing Harmonie, have made it clear that the Tigres is fully capable of working well, although our one is wimpy.
We had already tried most of the suggestions to no avail.

The contactor is new. Voltage drop across it is 0.1 volt
Total cable run is under 10 feet. Half is AWG 00 and the remainder is AWG 0000 All lugs are crimped and soldered.

One issue is that the windlass draws 40 amps, spinning freely and quietly, with the chain off the gypsy. I have asked Lofrans about this on three ocasions but never received a reply. Could someone please measure the current drawn at no load?

Oil is mentioned. The Lofrans manual discusses changing the oil, but i cannot find any recommendation in the manual on what type. I used 90 SAE gear oil. Is that OK?

Can anyone tell me the voltage at the motor terminals when the windlass is working hard.

We are laying up in Hiva-Oa in the Marquesas on 25th April. I have to decide what to bring back in the Fall. I would buy a new motor in the US, if I was sure that is the issue.
I could get a new battery here ($$$$) but not before haulout, so no way to test it under load.

You do not need to measure the voltage at the windlass terminals when it is working hard. You measure the voltage at the battery terminals. You have already measured the voltage drop in the wiring underload, right? simple arithmetic then.

Everybody suggesting a more complicated answer MIGHT be right. But you'd really kick yourself if the problem turned out to just be a weak battery after you did a lot of other--much more difficult--work.

Always eliminate the easy to diagnose and fix problems FIRST even if they might not be the most likely cause.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

Of course, but you are missing the point... If the battery can not hold voltage as the current increases things get worse and worse as the motor slows and approaches stall. Lower speed, demands more torque for the same power input. They are all connected.

The voltage drops BECAUSE the torque load current demand exceeds what the battery can generate.

In the OP it was stated that the windlass was drawing 150 to 185 amps.


Batteries that can deliver 150 to 185 amps are not failing, at least not in a way that affects the windlass.



Windlasses (with series wound motors) that draw 150 to 185 amps with minimal mechanical load do not suffer from low voltage.

[SV__Grace]

We have the same windlass and it has worked flawlessly living on the hook for the past 5 years. I know almost nothing about trouble shooting the motor but as a user-

1. Do you run the windlass with the engine on or off?

I was told years ago to always run a windlass with the engine on so it gets the sustained current it needs that most battery banks can't accommodate alone.

2. Might be a dumb question, but is the clutch tightly engaged? If not, it won't pull at full strength. Put the handle on the clutch wheel and push hard with some force.

3. Have you pulled the gypsy and clutch off to clean and grease? I imagine enough gunk in there can hinder performance.

4. Are the battery leads tightly connected with good contacts and in good shape? A loose lug might be part of the problem.

5. 90 weight SAE oil is good as you want "oil" for lubrication rather than "grease."

My peeve with this windlass is that changing the oil requires unbolting it from the deck to let the oil drain upside down. I've tried various tubes and pumps for extraction but nothing that I have found works yet. Thankfully it's a once every 3-5 years job.

I would love to hear from another user if they've devised a way to extract the oil while installed.

Another tip that I was told years ago is to run the windlass for no more than 15 seconds at a time to prevent overheating. I have no idea if that's really needed, especially in the PNW but no harm doing so and I wash the chain as it comes up.

[Elie]

Before dismantling the motor, a good idea would be to check the connections of the motor to the input cables. Corrosion, or loose connections would impair the capacity of the said motor.

[argonauta1]

I am very familiar with this model. You very likely have a significant amperage drop within the connections from the battery bank to the windlass itself i.e. the wiring. Thus the most likely cause of a power lack would be possible corrosion within the electrical cables which doubtless reach from your battery bank(s) all the way forward to the junction box for the remote control located somewhere in your anchor locker or immediately adjacent. As well, check the two power cables for corrosion coming from the junction box to the windlass as given their position, they are more prone to corrosion than the ones from the batteries. A visual check is not enough as corrosion is highly likely within the insulation.

The most unlikely cause is the windlass motor itself. Mine proved bullet proof!

[donradcliffe]

I remember working on a buddy boat's windlass in Malaysia. The problem turned out to be the cables. I measured the voltage drop to the windlass motor at various loads and concluded that the cables had high resistance. The cables were welding cables and the fine wires and turned to dust.

In your case, the problem sounds likely to be the motor. I'd take it home and have it tested. I had a bad motor in the Solomons. When I tried to take it apart, the end caps fell apart. I pulled up the anchor by hand for a season before I returned to Australia. It was a Maxwell windlass, and Maxwell had changed motor vendors. The new design replacement motor lasted over 10 years, then I sold the boat.

[vpbarkley]

Measure the voltage and current simultaneously at the windlass as a starting point. You may be getting less current or voltage at the windlass than expected.

The Tigres and most all windlasses use worm gearing which is terribly inefficient and incredibly dependent on having the correct lubricant.

Worm gearing imposes a thrust load on the worm gear so a functioning thrust bearing is essential to the lift capability of the windlass.

Check gear condition for wear.

[moseriw]

Very interested in thst thred - same problem here:


12v 1500W Tigres, Anchor 84 lbs 3/8 chain 240 ft
Motor new, Gearbox serviced running free without any problems
New 240 Ah AGM to new relais 000 AWG 6 ft, relais to windlass 6 ft 0 AWG
All wiring new.


I do not dare to drop anchor below 33 ft. 10m and I too have no Idea how to home in on that problem but I am going to solve it before getting stuck in the Marquesas.

[Tin Tin]

A further thought, many posters are suggesting a weak battery. Does your house bank and engine start bank have an emergency cross over switch, try the windlass with that switched on and engine running, that should give plenty of juice.

[hpeer]

In both cases with poor performance these were 12v systems.

If I read correctly both were also new, either windlass or motor.

QUESTION:
What would occur, what would the symptoms be, if 24VDC motors were provided in lieu of 12VDC motors?

How can one check?

Maybe Lofrans just screwed up and provided the wrong voltage motor?

[buddhadawg]

we had the exact same problem, took the motor and took it to repair shop for a once over, they came back with it was fun of gunk and crud cloggin everything up.. brushes were in good shape. they cleaned it out and it worked much better. we have since had a battery failure on our 4 battery bank. and we have had some under voltage issues without the extra battery..