Hurricane safety, - chain or rope?

[cheoah]

If you have good working chain, use it. bobconnie (bob?) is right, chafe is the one thing that'll get you, especially in a longer storm event. Nylon snubber/bridle with chafe gear is good, but having the chain well secured and led fair is smart money in the event your line parts - which is pretty common I think.

Strip the boat down of all canvas if you have a storm coming at you. I'm no longer surprised to see people leave their roller furling headsails up during hurricanes. What an easy thing to do, strike sail and stow it.

Wont need to worry much longer, until next year.

[SY Marelot]

Originally Posted by 44'cruisingcat

The boat weighs 14 tons. The weight of some chain won't make much difference. edit: How did they get a 40 foot aluminium boat so heavy? My old STEEL 40 footer "only" weighed around 12.

Yes, its a heavy boat, but the 38 feet bruce roberts steel sloop we did our first atlantic crossing in 1988 was about 19, so i guess at 12 tonn yours wasnt too bad. Anyway, the bow sits deep and i wont have less water coming over with all that chain up there. Actually i was hoping to discuss this issue of a weighted line with someone here at the forum, i have only been in one hurricane, Dean at St Maarten and then there were several boats moving on their anchors in the lagoon, and that was only wind and not a direct hit. I had put out a concrete block and that time went well but i have a few times drifted on anchor and its a rather unpleasant experience.

Ok, i guess my wish to discuss experience is not well received by all, but i also think that there are new ways of seeing things, and the issue of weighted lines is something that interests me. As an alternative. And i think chafing does not necessarily have to be prohibitive if things are set up right? But maybe im wrong and thats why im asking about experience. Ok, dont want to step on more toes here but would appreciate if those who have used weighted line with success could share their reflections,

Greetings,

Marek

[SY Marelot]

Originally Posted by Suijin

Alex from Port Annapolis waving hello. Hope your journey north is going well.

thanks, yes, no wind and no crew, but appart from that all is well. Im tired. Greetings, marek

[cheoah]

Originally Posted by SY Marelot

Yes, its a heavy boat, but the 38 feet bruce roberts steel sloop we did our first atlantic crossing in 1988 was about 19, so i guess at 12 tonn yours wasnt too bad. Anyway, the bow sits deep and i wont have less water coming over with all that chain up there. Actually i was hoping to discuss this issue of a weighted line with someone here at the forum, i have only been in one hurricane, Dean at St Maarten and then there were several boats moving on their anchors in the lagoon, and that was only wind and not a direct hit. I had put out a concrete block and that time went well but i have a few times drifted on anchor and its a rather unpleasant experience.

Ok, i guess my wish to discuss experience is not well received by all, but i also think that there are new ways of seeing things, and the issue of weighted lines is something that interests me. As an alternative. And i think chafing does not necessarily have to be prohibitive if things are set up right? But maybe im wrong and thats why im asking about experience. Ok, dont want to step on more toes here but would appreciate if those who have used weighted line with success could share their reflections,

Greetings,

Marek

Hi Marek, Not real clear on first paragraph, but I think your concern is weight in the bow (bow riding low)? Of course you can stow the chain in the bilge on passage if it is affecting performance. Not convenient, but no big deal.

As far as using weight, like a kellet or sentinel, how much catenary would you expect in sustained storm force winds? At lower winds speeds, on short scope, maybe a good technique. In strong winds, how much weight would it take to put some catenary in your line? Way too much to make it practical. The line is going to be straight and taught.

You can get by with chain/nylon combo with chafe protection, it's just not as reliable as all chain.

[SY Marelot]

Originally Posted by cheoah

Hi Marek, Not real clear on first paragraph, but I think your concern is weight in the bow (bow riding low)? Of course you can stow the chain in the bilge on passage if it is affecting performance. Not convenient, but no big deal. As far as using weight, like a kellet or sentinel, how much catenary would you expect in sustained storm force winds? At lower winds speeds, on short scope, maybe a good technique. In strong winds, how much weight would it take to put some catenary in your line? Way too much to make it practical. The line is going to be straight and taught. You can get by with chain/nylon combo with chafe protection, it's just not as reliable as all chain.

Cheoa,

Its not feasible to move all that chain around inside the boat and i dont think its an option. Im really interested in the vectors at play here, the chain is a weight and has mechanical qualities. All the lead which we are carrying for our diving could be employed in this equation. And as a curiosum I could add that when we excavated the Wreck of Russian frigatte Perwoy in 1984-85 we found both anchors with the ropes. The ship had sunk in a gale off Jutland in 1758 but the anchors held and had been burried under drifting sands for more than two centuries, - anyway, im here if anyone wishes to discuss the issue

[Jim Cate]

Well, perhaps the reason that you have not had responses from folks who have successfully used kellets in storm conditions is that there are none.

You asked for responses from experienced cruisers re chain vs rope rode. You have had responses from about a half dozen. They all said chain and to forget kellets.

I begin to suspect that you only want responses that agree with your desire to use this sort of anchoring system.

Good luck.

Jim

[SY Marelot]

Thanks Jim, that is very helpfull

[svmariane]

Originally Posted by SY Marelot

Thanks Jim, that is very helpfull

Question: Did you read through the links I provided for you up there in post #14?

They are all threads here on CF, and the first in particular talks about using all chain, chain and rope combination, different types of rope for snubbing a chain, and etc. Many - or most - of the posts in that first link came from people (myself included, I'll admit) who have anchored out in extreme weather. Did not those links help answer ANY of your questions?

[MarkJ]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Well, perhaps the reason that you have not had responses from folks .

I sitting here nice and quiet

[SY Marelot]

Originally Posted by svmariane

Question: Did you read through the links I provided for you up there in post #14?

They are all threads here on CF, and the first in particular talks about using all chain, chain and rope combination, different types of rope for snubbing a chain, and etc. Many - or most - of the posts in that first link came from people (myself included, I'll admit) who have anchored out in extreme weather. Did not those links help answer ANY of your questions?

SV Marianne,

Im very gratefull for the links and information that you provided. I appreciate your constructive approach for discussing these important issues and that is very important. The rich array of experiences quoted in the threads you have provided, are indeed helpfull. However, the question is not yet closed, as we all to some degree have experiences of, and reflections on, new materials used for rode and ground tackle.


I should have mentioned that to you yesterday but I was a bit occupied with some other issues. Thanks again and enjoy a safe sail,


All best, Marek

[gjordan]

Marec, A kellet/ sentinal is very useful for certain conditions, but to increase ultimate holding power is not one of the conditions. If used in gusty conditions it will make the boat surge farther forward in the lulls, and give the boat more room to develop rearward speed when the next gust hits. That small extra room to move will often make the bow fall off and put the wind to the side of the boat, which increases the strain on the rode and anchor. I have used sentinals on all three of my cruising boats, but mainly to get the rode deeper in the water so that the drunks coming home from the bar dont slash my rode with their outboard. My first boat had all chain on the main, but if anchored in a crowded spot with a stern hook out on nylon,(like Cabo) I would put about a 20 lb sentinal out on the stern line so no one cut it. My next 2 boats had rope/chain rode (only because I could not afford all chain) and I used the sentinal on the main for the same reason. I never thought it gave me any better holding power, but with all of the Zodiacs racing around anchorages in the Caribbean it may well have saved my nylon. As far as ultimate holding, follow the advice previously givin, and get a long hunk of chain with a BIG anchor and know how to do a snubber. Then have at least 2 more hooks on rope/chain that you can row/motor out. Good heavy ground tackle is the best insurance a boat can have. Good luck _____Grant.

[SY Marelot]

Grant,

I appreciate your reply. Im reaching the conclusion that Ill fill that forward locker up with as much new chain as I can possibly squeeze in there. And possibly get a good old fashion Hereshof type anchor to supplement what I already have.

Ive taken a devils advocate position but I see no alternatives to chain, now in 2013 as it was in 1913 and as in 1813.

So chain it will be.

And why should that be a problem? Besides the weight, the fact that only paint and galvanization keeps all of the steel from eating away at my aluminum hull and then the cost of a good quality European or US made chain? (I mean, we are not going to put one of those omnipresent Asian products into our ship?)

Ok, I will accept the weight and the cost. Now I need to find a US dealer of these German chains or something similar.

Schiffsketten (Schiffskette) - Hersteller, Zulieferer & Händler

Ok, thanks. That goes to all of you. Marek

[gjordan]

Marek, somewhere on CF there is a reference to a rubber mat sold by (I think) Defender. You are right about not wanting your chain against aluminum, painted or not. This mat was reported to allow drainage and keeping the metal hull safe from paint chipping or electrolysis. If you dont find it at Defender, try commercial flooring outfits for rubber mats . Good luck. ____Grant.

[Suijin]

Originally Posted by gjordan

Marek, somewhere on CF there is a reference to a rubber mat sold by (I think) Defender. You are right about not wanting your chain against aluminum, painted or not. This mat was reported to allow drainage and keeping the metal hull safe from paint chipping or electrolysis. If you dont find it at Defender, try commercial flooring outfits for rubber mats . Good luck. ____Grant.

Or, go into a commercial kitchen supply store. They have rubber holed mats for commercial kitchens that are incredibly tough that would work well.

[SY Marelot]

Originally Posted by gjordan

Marek, somewhere on CF there is a reference to a rubber mat sold by (I think) Defender. You are right about not wanting your chain against aluminum, painted or not. This mat was reported to allow drainage and keeping the metal hull safe from paint chipping or electrolysis. If you dont find it at Defender, try commercial flooring outfits for rubber mats . Good luck. ____Grant.

YES! Grant & Suijin,

Off course, the idea of having steel chain directly against the aluminum is not very pleasant, especially as I noticed how badly corroded the lower (inner) part of the chain was when I pulled it out. The lower part of the chain tends to sit in a moist/wet salty environment and first the galvanization disappears and then... so a good rubber mat to protect the aluminum hull at that place will be very useful - thanks