Is it possible to haul in all chain by hand?

[SVJennie]

More of same: Had small windlass that broke early on, but in my early thirties, as a singlehander, I didn't find it too difficult to lift a 35# CQR and 5/16 HT chain by hand in sandy areas. Second voyage, and 20 years later, included a SL 555, but having to re-anchor three times in succession in 40 feet of water and sticky mud, with a 45# CQR, pulling the windlass handle, and hand over handing the chain got more than a bit old. Replaced SL with Maxwell electric and found I wouldn't hesitate to re-anchor if I had even the slightest doubt about the boat's location. Accordingly, the new windlass increased the safety of the boat and crew. Finally and possibly more to the point, found 5/16 HT chain more than capable to meeting my needs, and being lighter than 3/8, could have more on board and be able to increase scope as necessary. As for corrosion, I have a grating at the bottom of the chain locker that allows water to be pumped out of a sump, although it isn't perfect, I believe in may extend the life of the chain. One well known sailor rinses his chain with fresh water to reduce the advent of rust.
To answer the original question, if I knew I would not be cruising for years in a coral or rocky bottomed anchorage, for now, I would probably go with about 30 feet of chain and a nylon rode with no windlass, otherwise, it will be all chain.

[jreiter190]

I think you posted your boat was less than 30'.If that Is right,get as much 1/4" chain in 75'lengths as you can stow so you can spread them around. You can hand haul 1/4" all day and carry a lot of chain. Others might say that 1/4" Is not heavy enough but I've delivered 35' seven ton boats that stayed in Mexico for two years and never had trouble. The savings in cost and weight along with ability to carry more chain will pay off of your boat is 30'or less. Just one sailors' opinion.

[Sandero]

Ralph,
You are not supposed to use a windlass to pull the boat to the anchor. You use it to retrieve the chain.

The way you are supposed to do it... is to use the windlass to pull the chain and remove the catenary... several feet of chain. But when you do that... the weight of the chain (droops) and forms a new catenary AND in so doing gets the boat moving toward the annchor. As it moves the catenary droops a bit... less lateral force and tension and you press de button and retrieve more chain... the boat is now moving a tad faster toward the anchor location. Rinse and repeat until the bow is over the anchor... it then usually breaks out with the chain vertical and the boat moving over it. Then you can quickly retrieve the chain length and anchor which is the depth of water you are anchored in.

If you have crew they can motor the boat to the anchor instead of using the catenary to make way... AND they can steer the boat if the bow blows to leeward.

When I am doing this single handed I often have to wait for the boat to align with the chain... so it rides properly in the roller and makes way toward the anchor. This can take several swings thru the eye of the wind depending on wind speed and water depth.

My back is not as strong as it once was. I have nothing to prove and having mechanical assists like an AP, windlass and a winch bit in a drill to raise the main make sailing more pleasurable and safer. But like with digital charts... I learned how to navigate without all the bells and whistles and of course can get the anchor up without the windlass. But why when I don't have to?

My windlass cost about say $2,000 all told and I've been anchoring hundreds if not thousands of times over the years. I can afford it! But then again I don't spend money on beer and booze. ;-)

BTW... if you use foot switches to retrieve the anchor AND you have a hose connected to a pump pulling sea water you can strap the chain and drive the mud and weeds off the chain so it doesn't come on deck and into your chain locker or foul your windlass.

[rbrentp]

My cat has two 32lb anchors. One on a mechanical windlass and the other by hand. Chain is 5/16ths. I made a mistake of anchoring in 40 ft of water. Fortunately, used the anchor on the windlass. Even with the crank, 200 feet of chain (232lbs plus the anchor) was absolutely exhausting. I am admittedly not as young and strong as I was once was......but that is no way to start a day.

I intend to reduce one down to fifty feet of chain and the other to 75 and keep the rope portion. That reduces bow weight by two hundred pounds. The idea is that in those uncomfortable situations to use both anchors and the rest of the time anchor shallow and protected.

Please tell me why this plan is a bad idea.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by rbrentp

My cat has two 32lb anchors. One on a mechanical windlass and the other by hand. Chain is 5/16ths. I made a mistake of anchoring in 40 ft of water. Fortunately, used the anchor on the windlass. Even with the crank, 200 feet of chain (232lbs plus the anchor) was absolutely exhausting. I am admittedly not as young and strong as I was once was......but that is no way to start a day.

I intend to reduce one down to fifty feet of chain and the other to 75 and keep the rope portion. That reduces bow weight by two hundred pounds. The idea is that in those uncomfortable situations to use both anchors and the rest of the time anchor shallow and protected.

Please tell me why this plan is a bad idea.

Sounds like a great plan. I might go 30 foot of chain depending on the bottom were you are.

[Bluebeard]

For what it's worth:-
my experience with a 30foot ex racing boat cruising the Devon coast, with most anchorages in estuaries, was that all chain was essential. Using rope allowed too much movement every tide change.
I always recovered by hand without trouble except:-
One day about to enter Beaucette the motor wouldn't start so I dropped the hook into 60m ft of water. I'm not that strong, so I hauled it up with the genoa winch, using prussic knots to grip the chain.
Back in the thread it has already been suggested that a snatch block near the stern would allow a full boat length at one bite. And do make sure you have a couple of chain hooks.
It's all very doable if you think it through and have the right bits of gear ready ( which I didn't on that occasion )
It is probably no more sweat than using a manual windlass.

It depends what and where you intend to go, but an electric windlass on a 28 footer sounds like overkill.
Another thought, if you go that way, is get a 18v angle drill and a drive to fit winches for the occasions that you need to winch up the cable.

[Robin3]

Originally Posted by RTB

So, educate me. The boats with windlasses that I've observed still motored up the chain toward the anchor, taking in slack chain as they go. It is my understanding (right or wrong?) that you don't just have the windlass pull you to your anchor in less than calm conditions (say 15-20 knots of wind). I assume (my bad) that you would stop retrieving chain if the bow falls away, leaving the chain at an angle off the bow.

Or do you just hit your button and put the pedal to the metal, and presto, the anchor is sitting on deck.

I'm just thinking that someone with no experience with a windlass might get the wrong idea about proper use of that piece of equipment. Maybe I would be one of those people.

Previously mentioned by Jim Cate that it is not uncommon to anchor in 50' of water while voyaging to many areas. I wonder if the OP realizes how much chain he'd need on put on his boat. Probably 400' or so. Maybe 350' minimum?

Comment about anchoring in mud. You don't want to get dirty? So, do you just dump all that muddy chain into you anchor locker after you run it through your expensive windlass? Most of us use a bucket if we don't have a deck washdown. Either way, you're up on the bow dealing with the mess.

Yes, MOST cruising boats I've seen have a windlass. Some of us don't, and it's not a big deal to us. It's just part of our cruising, just like jugging fuel and water to our anchored boat. Just like when we walk to a store for provisions a mile or two away, and return (still walking) with heavy canvas bags weighing our shoulders and hands down. Do it your way, and do it mine. Just don't tell me or anyone else, they must have a windlass to go cruising. I do agree if you plan on anchoring in deep water fairly often, then yes, I agree. But my cruising is from Texas, to the Bahamas, and up the East Coast to Georgia or the Carolinas. Also, it depends on the size boat (and the size of the ground tackle).





Ralph

WE always motor towards the anchor so the windlass only pulls up slack chain. if sailing out of an anchorage an occasional blip of the windlass sets the boat moving forward, chain goes slack, windlass pulls slack in, repeat until done. Slowly slowly catchee monkey! If the bow falls off to one side so that the chain angles out of the roller, wait until it straightens before continuing. I kinda thought this was how everyone would do it but apparently not, just as I assumed people would understnd that in real terms you only lift the weight of the chain between bottom and roller, not the whole lot that is out to give a 7:1 or whatever scope, yes you have to recover it, but no, just not have to lift it all in one humungous heave.

In really deep water an all chain rode to give the chosen scope is not needed. Firstly less scope works with depth as the catenary gives the required angle of tug we used to crry 180ft of chain in European waters where the rise of tide alone could be as much as 50ft, we would simply add nylon warp to that once it was all deployed. MOST Europeans hate mainly warp rodes as they allow the boat to wander over too big an area and often the anchorages are crowded so that is antisocial.

Ralph, general comments not aimed at you specifically, I just chose to reply after reading your post.

[RTB]

Originally Posted by Robin3

WE always motor towards the anchor so the windlass only pulls up slack chain. if sailing out of an anchorage an occasional blip of the windlass sets the boat moving forward, chain goes slack, windlass pulls slack in, repeat until done. Slowly slowly catchee monkey! If the bow falls off to one side so that the chain angles out of the roller, wait until it straightens before continuing. I kinda thought this was how everyone would do it but apparently not, just as I assumed people would understnd that in real terms you only lift the weight of the chain between bottom and roller, not the whole lot that is out to give a 7:1 or whatever scope, yes you have to recover it, but no, just not have to lift it all in one humungous heave.

Exactly, Robin. There are a bit of confusing posts here. I asked some questions that I thought were important. Some of the posts have been mis-leading, at least it seems that way to me. I have anchored with a windlass (on a 46' catamaran), have a good friend that sails solo that I discuss topics with, and feel I'm pretty up to speed on most aspects of anchoring. Windlass or not, the technique for retrieving the chain and anchor is the same.

SanderO describes how to properly use a windlass. I agree that works in pretty mild conditions, whether using a windlass or human power. My doubt is that that technique works when the wind is up to 15 or 20 knots (which was my question and he didn't quote it). Not sure how to retrieve the chain without putting undo stress on the windlass....without using the sails or engine?

Anyway, these anchor threads are always fun. thanks for your input, Robin. I'll look you up when we get back on the East Coast (taking beer to Jax!)

Ralph

[Sandero]

Ralph,
There is usually some catenary in the chain, but with stronger winds it's not much and rather hard to get the boat to make any way. I can manage to get the hook up without motoring to the anchor in 15... 20 might be difficult. In those conditions I work the windlass from the cockpit AND I drive the boat a bit forward. I can't do this from the bow... I had to have cockpit windlass controls for these very conditions.

[RTB]

Originally Posted by Sandero

Ralph,
There is usually some catenary in the chain, but with stronger winds it's not much and rather hard to get the boat to make any way. I can manage to get the hook up without motoring to the anchor in 15... 20 might be difficult. In those conditions I work the windlass from the cockpit AND I drive the boat a bit forward. I can't do this from the bow... I had to have cockpit windlass controls for these very conditions.

Thanks! I don't mean to be a PIA. I know you, Jim Cate, and plenty of others have way more experience than me. I only know what I have learned over the past couple of years. Some of that cruising has been quite exciting....especially nights at anchor, asking myself if living on a boat is such a great idea. But, once the crazy stuff goes away, so do the doubts. It will only get easier the longer we survive. Hey, heading out again in another month or so (less windlass). It's always fun, and sure to be another adventure!

Ralph

[farm sail]

Originally Posted by Robin3

It has been a long time, but we had a 33 foot westerly ketch back in the 19th century with a manual windlass and all chain rode. The manual windlass was so slow we never used it and it seized up I eventually bit the bullet and installed an electric windlass, changing at the same time from the original 90 ft of 8mm to 180 ft of10 mm ( 3/8) chain and a bigger (45lb from 35lb) anchor. I was much younger and fitter back then but with the electric windlass anchoring ( and re-anchoring if not perfect first time) became a simple pleasure. The 41 footer successor to that boat came with 200ft of 10mm chain and a 35lb Delta, with a Lewmar electric windlass. There was one occasion when the windlass failed and dropped all the chain in 30 feet of water and I had to haul it ( twice) by hand, it was possible but not pleasant and I rebuilt the windlass just as soon as I could ( Pawls broke up). Now at age 70 and after 2 total hip replacements and recovering from a bad stroke 3 years back, when we lived on a 47 foot motor yacht we are back now living on dirt and have a 36 foot sailboat with an all 3/8 chain ( 150ft) rode and 45lb Delta, naturally with an electric windlass. We live and cruise the East coast ICW and islands so never very deep waters. Even now I could haul chain but not from choice that is for sure

Damn the OP is over a hundred years old and still thinks they can get by without a windlass! My hat is off to you

[Jim Cate]

G'Day Ralph and others,

About windlass abuse: a lot of talk about never using the windlass to pull the boat up to the anchor, both from CF pundits and, in fact, my maxwell windlass owner's manual.

Here's my take on it: My windlass is rated at 1500 lbs dead pull by the manufacturer. They recommend not exceeding 1/3 of that value in total weight of your ground tackle, so they must be comfortable with the windlass being loaded to that value, ie 500 lbs. In my opinion, it does not matter if that pull is exerted in lifting ground tackle or pulling the boat up to the anchor... why should the windlass care where the load comes from? And it takes way less than 500 lbs of pull to bring the boat up to the anchor... way less!

It is reasonable to avoid shock loading on the windlass when you can, but in some instances when weighing in a big sea, it happens unexpectedly... but that has little to do with pulling the boat up to the anchor. It usually happens when you are "straight up and down" and trying to break the anchor out of the mud. It is good practice to only do that with a stain relieving snubber or stopper engaged, but sometimes that isn't practical (although the stopper does make it much easier to comply with the idea). But you know what? Despite such abuse, most decent windlasses will keep on ticking for many years.

So, despite the derision from CF and whining from Maxwell, we have and will continue to use our windlass to bring the boat up when required. Of course, we will use the engine in strong winds when feasible, but there have been a few times when that was not on. We've sailed the anchor out at times, and doing that inevitably puts some strong loads on the windlass when you run out of slack and jerk the bow around. My feeling is if that sort of service is too harsh for the equipment, it is time to consider new equipment... from another manufacturer! But, we have used windlasses, both manual and electric for a long time and a lot of anchoring, and their reliability is pretty good... not perfect, but failure rates that are acceptable to me.

Jim

[Sailorbob8599]

An interesting read of all these comments. At least I feel comfortable I have equipped my full keeled, Passage 24 Cutter, with a 25lb CQR, ... 200` of quarter inch HT chain, and a MUIR double action manual windlass, complete with a Pawl.
I have two other anchors for back-up ... a 12 lb Danforth, and a 15 lb folding spoon-bill. Both of these have 25`of chain plus 200`of half inch Golden braid nylon.
I have to admit, I have yet to use any of these anchors as I only launched the boat for the first time 3 weeks ago and still chasing all those little things that didn`t get done prior to launch time.
Yes, we`ve had two shake-down sail-abouts in the bay of short duration, but hardly long enough to call a cruise though. We have hoisted the Mains`l, the Yankee and the Drifter for trial purposes. We have yet to hoist the inner jib on the baby stay, but all in good time. We`ll probably do that next time we`re out. I`m anxious to hoist both jibs and main to see how she performs. At least we`re ironing out all the bugs one by one and looking forward to our first cruise. Use of the anchor cannot be far off.

[Sandero]

What are the wind forces on an anchored boat? At 20 knots they are about .6 pounds per square foot. My hull is about 12' wide and the free board is about 5.5' so the force on the hull from 20k is about 66 x .6 or about 300# . The add to this the super structure, the mast, the dodger and it probably get close to 500# with the boat dead to wind. Bit of course the boat is shearing in the wind and when it does there is more area including the dinghy.

Having said this... Jim Cate's point is sensible... the windlass is rated at 1500# should be able to pull 500# or more... I am not sure why they rate them at 1500 and tell you they should only be used a 500.

The wind pressure varies (increases) by the square... and so it builds pretty quickly. 25 knots exerts 3 times the wind pressure as does 18 knots. And we know that winds are gusty!

I suspect most windlass can easily pull most boats they are fitted on in winds up to 12-15 with not much problem and that most sailors DO motor up to the anchor if they can in any case. If you tax the windlass motor you risk tripping the breaker from an current surge.

It's pretty hard to stop even the slowest moving heavy sailboat... so once it has some way it has momentum!

[Robin3]

Originally Posted by RTB

Exactly, Robin. There are a bit of confusing posts here. I asked some questions that I thought were important. Some of the posts have been mis-leading, at least it seems that way to me. I have anchored with a windlass (on a 46' catamaran), have a good friend that sails solo that I discuss topics with, and feel I'm pretty up to speed on most aspects of anchoring. Windlass or not, the technique for retrieving the chain and anchor is the same.

SanderO describes how to properly use a windlass. I agree that works in pretty mild conditions, whether using a windlass or human power. My doubt is that that technique works when the wind is up to 15 or 20 knots (which was my question and he didn't quote it). Not sure how to retrieve the chain without putting undo stress on the windlass....without using the sails or engine?

Anyway, these anchor threads are always fun. thanks for your input, Robin. I'll look you up when we get back on the East Coast (taking beer to Jax!)

Ralph

I almost missed your reply and now there are more as well, but pretty much coming round to a consensus or as near as we are likely to see I suspect! I'm just listening to the local TV News bigging up of the approach of TS Erika which looks like it could (they would be lost without that word) increase and reach the Bahamas. Are your friends still out there, a few from our marina are I know? Not my choice of time of year for sure, too darn hot for me regardless of it being hurricane season and not having the latest newgen anchor either, plus my on board beauty doesn't do the mermaid bit!.