Lighthouse Windlass Gypsy Modification to fit 5/16 G40/G43 chain

[SunnySky]

I am at wits end dealing with windlass gypsies matching chain or having chain matching gypsies after purchasing a Lighthouse 1501 with two gypsies "sized for G40 high test chain" and two capstans over two years ago. Long story short there used to be slightly thicker wire used to make 5/16 Acco G40 high test chain compared to the currently manufactured 5/16 Acco G40 high test chain and that slight change in specifications affected the way new Acco G40 high test chain fits in gypsies manufactured for the older standard of Acco G40 high test chain. Lighthouse blames the chain manufacturers for changing the spec (YEARS AGO..) and refuses to adapt their gypsies to fit currently manufactured G40/G43 5/16" ISO even though the only option I am aware of to get 5/16 inch chain with a load rating of 3900 lbs to fit in their gypsy is to pay an exorbitant amount for a custom run of chain which is entirely out of the question especially given that it will be an ordeal every time chain needs to be replaced.

So long story short, does anyone know a machine shop that is knowledgeable and experienced in either modifying or custom manufacturing a gypsy to fit standard 5/16" G40/G43 high test chain because the best they have been able to do over the last two years is trade out the gypsies that came with my windlass to 5/16" BBB gypsies which fit slightly better but still skip a significant amount and last time they called they were back to telling me to chase down some chain somewhere that would fit the gypsy which was the wild goose chase I was on two years ago all over again.

Having so many thousands of dollars into a windlass that does not have (or a manufacturer that even ever intend to have) gypsies made to fit standard 5/16" high test chain has been beyond frustrating and I am pretty close to just selling the Lighthouse windlass to anyone whose boat would be able to get by with the weight ratings of 5/16" BBB chain and simply buying another new windlass because it is an ordeal every time I pull anchor. I actually choose not to go sailing many times simply because I don't want to pull anchor which is not the point of having a sailboat...

Thanks,
David Demarest
sv Sunny Sky hailing from Cold Bay AK

[jcapo]

I have a 1501 with a 5/16 G4 gypsy with just a tad less than 90 degree wrap. The old chain was a bit rusty and it slipped once in a while on the gypsy. I replaced the pretty good condition chain in December 2010 with new Acco 5/16 G4 when we left the dock and had money to spend on such things. :-(

3 years later after spending most of that time on the hook when not moving the chain starts jumping on the gypsy. I chopped off the worst end and had the remaining 200 feet re-galvanized. The chain works fine now.

If your chain is not new re-galvanizing may be an option.

[colemj]

There is a CF member with the username "GMac". If there is anything about chains and windlasses and other bits, he knows it. If he doesn't know it, it doesn't exist. Or he has had too many beers - he will know it again in the morning.

Look him up here and send him a PM. He may be able to help you with determining which chain can work on your gypsy. There is more than one standard for anchor chain, and they vary by quite a bit.

Mark

[SunnySky]

Thanks,
Send Gmac a private message :-)
The idea of re-galvanizing my current chain, or even new chain to gain wire thickness, is interesting. I'ld be a little worried the outside dimensions might get out of the required spec (since a single link fits pretty close to perfect) but in a worst case scenario the outer portions of galvanizing would wear down pretty quickly if they didn't fit but the inner galvanizing would still minimize the difference between the current chain specs and the old gypsy specs. Interesting route to take, and definitely has me thinking even though my preference is still to modify the gypsy to fit off the shelf chain would be my ideal..
David

[exMaggieDrum]

A friend of mine has a Tayana V42 and has a Lighthouse 1501. He changed from 3/8 chain to 5/16 HT and I think he has been happy with it. What exactly he has, I don't know. It was new chain and Lighthouse sent him a new gypsy.

One of the things interesting about his windless "well" is that it is below deck so the angle between the chain going over the bowsprit and going down the hawser is more than 90 degrees. That means that he has less contact with the chain than a gypsy with a 90 degree (or less) angle. From what I have heard that is not ideal and can cause slippage more than a smaller, more acute, angle, since less of the chain is in the gypsy chain pockets. That is not something you can fix of course, at least very easily, and it doesn't address the Lighthouse support/product issue.

The galvanizing idea may work for you. But I was not sure what you meant that your chain would jump when not moving for a while. Do you mean that your chain is tensioned on the gypsy at anchor?, i.e. you are not using a snubber or other means to isolate the chain from the gypsy? I suspect that is just my misunderstanding though as you should never use the gypsy that way.

[SunnySky]

I'm curious what year your friend bought their 5/16" HT chain and what manufacturer made it/when it was manufactured vs actually purchased because it might have been in a warehouse for years? My understanding of the problem I have had the past 2 years is that the chain manufacturers changed the wire diameter of the 5/16" G40/G43 ISO short link chain very slightly which ever so slightly changed the spacing of the links per foot and Lighthouse Manufacturing wants Acco or another chain manufacturer to go back to the old slightly thicker wire diameter which would make the Acco G40 chain fit their old gypsies (which I am assuming they have a pile they would like to get rid of since they are outdated) but the chain manufacturers aren't inclined to do that (main difference is 1.07 lbs per ft for same strength as old 1.10 lbs per ft being seen as a slight improvement in material/shipping cost for same rated strengths which really adds up given the chain manufactures volume of sales).

The logical thing to do is make a gypsy fit the currently manufactured high test chain but Lighthouse is unwilling to do that, and last time I was dealing with this they had me send them chain with the understanding they would give me a gypsy to match but instead of making a gypsy to match (which was my understanding of what they would finally do at long last because after buying an brand new windlass from them I had been dealing with this problem for MONTHS at the time and getting the typical run around of Lighthouse windlass people saying "the chain should match our gypsy" and the chain manufacturers saying "the gypsy should match our chain" with the only way I got Lighthouse to reluctantly agree to give me a gypsy matching my chain was asking them to source chain that actually fit their gypsy at any price; I already knew full well that custom chain or randomly finding a warehouse with unused inventory from years ago were only options that would work..).

Instead of finally making a gypsy to match the chain I sent them, they simply swapped it out for an off the shelf 5/16" BBB gypsy which fit much better than their old design 5/16 G4 gypsy so pulling anchor wasn't quite as bad, but it still skipped a good amount and wasn't actually sized for the current 5/16" short link high test chain I had...

The angle of the chain going in and out of the windlass is slightly less than 90 degrees which should make it even less likely to skip and there is plenty of height between the gypsy and where the chain is stored.

jcapo was the person that mentioned having an issue with chain skipping after three years on the hook so I am not 100% sure of that set up but I was thinking they were referring to wear and/or corrosion on the chain making it no longer fit properly when in use? In the case of my set up, I have a pretty standard nylon bridle set up from my two hulls hooked onto the chain when anchored so there is no load on the gypsy except when actually using the windlass.

Thanks for your advice though :-)
David

[exMaggieDrum]

My friend is literally enroute back to Mexico and will be consumed with recommissioning his boat which has been on the hard for the summer months in PV. I will see if he can answer your questions but it may take a few days.

[Terra Nova]

Originally Posted by SunnySky

...The angle of the chain going in and out of the windlass is slightly less than 90 degrees which should make it even less likely to skip and there is plenty of height between the gypsy and where the chain is stored...

You are being a little vague on this. ? Precisely how much clear space is there between the gypsy and top of the chain pile, without knocking the pile over? If the installation is faultless (let's see photos) then there are a couple things you might do to help prevent slippage.

Cleanest and best would be to have a new gypsy cast and machined. But it might be cheaper and quicker to locate a suitable donor gypsy, with appropriate external dimensions, and one that truly fits the chain; then have a machine shop adapt it to your hub.

Providing there is sufficient space, another approach could be to install a heavy duty idler over-roller between the gypsy and bow roller, causing the existing gypsy then to contain more wrap. In this way you might increase the amount of wrap from 90* to 135*, resulting in a wrap increase of 50%, which should make a world of improvement in minimizing slippage.

[jcapo]

Originally Posted by exMaggieDrum

The galvanizing idea may work for you. But I was not sure what you meant that your chain would jump when not moving for a while. Do you mean that your chain is tensioned on the gypsy at anchor?, i.e. you are not using a snubber or other means to isolate the chain from the gypsy? I suspect that is just my misunderstanding though as you should never use the gypsy that way.

3 years of anchoring except when not underway. Not moving was a bad choice of words. Point was the chain was in bad shape after 3 years of anchoring. That appears to be normal for Acco chain these days. Consult Google.

The windlass on a V42 is below deck level. A Lighthouse 1501 windlass will have less than a 90 degree wrap on the gypsy when mounted with a block underneath to raise the capstan as high as possible in the windlass compartment.

I have seen schemes where the chain passes over an anchor roller and down into the windlass compartment and then under another anchor roller and up to the windlass gypsy. The roller the chain first passes over has to be removable because of the doors complicating things.

[SunnySky]

Thank you Terra Nova,
I didn't mean to be vague about the distance between the gypsy and the top of the chain pile, which is about 2' from the bottom of the gypsie to the top of the pile when I have my anchor up and had 325' of chain. Oftentimes there is bit more because I tend to kick the pile back periodically while pulling anchor (the picture I just took was without much chain in the locker because I am currently anchored). Surely that is plenty? There is also less/more than 90 degrees of chain wrap (depending on which angle being measured, since we were measuring the opposite side of 180 degrees).

You can see from the picture that only one link fits in the gypsy properly and the 2nd link is already off about about 1/8" (note: this is the gypsy Lighthouse sent me to "match the chain I sent them" but it is really just a standard 5/16" BBB gypsy which was an improvement from the original old "Acco G4" gypsy which no longer fits the current Acco G4 chain due to the slightly reduced wire diameters of the chain when Peerless purchased Acco in July of 2006 and all old inventory of "old Acco G4 chain" was sold off and the "new Acco G4 chain" was manufactured slightly differently).

Given how incredibly difficult it has been to have Lighthouse concede that they should make gypsies to fit currently manufactured 5/16" HT chain the idea of modifying another manufacturer's gypsy to fit my windlass might be the way to go...

Thanks for your advice,
David

[Strait Shooter]

I bought and installed my lighthouse 1501 two years ago. I bought the 5/16" acco chain last year, and was manufactured in 2013.

I have less than a ninety degree wrap, and have had the chain slip on only the rare occasion. My primary chain falls into the foredeck chain locker by itself, with no assistance needed. The secondary 275' needs another set of hands to help knock down the pile below the v berth as it comes aboard.

I don't have any problems with the chain and the gypsy as far as I can tell. Lighthouse helped a lot in sizing the chain and gypsies for me, they also helped me locate a chain vendor that I ultimately never used. I found the chain cheaper elsewhere.

Curious!

[Terra Nova]

The 24" I would certainly not call "plenty of height". So you must be careful to not let it build up. Now it's time to look for another gypsy to modify.

[Strait Shooter]

I should have noted that I've anchored out full time every since I got the chain
I move every 2-3 days and the windlass has gotten quite the work out. I love that damn thing.

So, the question I have for the more experienced here then is this, as a chain wears, is it common to get more slippage?

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by SunnySky

The angle of the chain going in and out of the windlass is slightly less than 90 degrees which should make it even less likely to skip and there is plenty of height between the gypsy and where the chain is stored.

I think you said it works mostly ok and jumps occasionally.

It may or may not help to have more than 90 degrees of engagement. It could be that if the place where the gypsy begins to pick up the chain is where there is very little downward force from the chain then the tooth will not fully engage. Instead it could get under the horizontal link instead of fully behind it. That might tend to lift it thus kicking the link off the tooth behind which is the one (and maybe only one) actually pulling the load. I would try holding a bar or board under the chain as a test. Very slightly lift the chain so that the angle is as close to 90 as you can get. I suspect it will quit skipping. I suspect pressing down on the chain in an attempt to engage another tooth will make the problem worse.

At the same time you try lifting you can try the opposite and press down on chain slightly making the angle less than 90 and see which way helps the most.

I realize this is a lot of coulds, maybes and so on but if that experiment works then it would become a question how to implement. But to do the experiment isn't that hard and may prove instructive.

FWIW, I have the same windless and my chain is G4 but not sure of the year of manufacture. It never skips in our 1501 windless. But our angle is pretty much exactly 90 degrees. The top of the pile is about 18" below the deck. Any closer to the deck and the motor might interfere with the chain fall.

Which brings up another question. Does it skip right away when you weigh anchor or just when the chain is straight down and the anchor is off the bottom?

[Terra Nova]

The longer a gypsy is allowed to slip, the more accelerated the wear on the gypsy, the more it will slip.