Mediterranean Mooring

[poiu]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Congratulations for sailing such a beautiful boat
Do You have a bow thruster on it. Probably yes, on such a big boat, but I can not be sure

Generally I do not use Your method, as I do prefer to back the boat with the speed even to the speed of windlass putting the chain out. It is slowly, I know. But, if You get the angle of the hull to the wind right and You keep the anchor chain quite tight all the way back, You can execute full control of situation even at a low speed. Of course - You need good anchor, setting on very short distance and reliably. If You have one, it will not allow the bow of the boat to be blown off by the wind. With crosswind, at the beginning of the backing I'm aiming for the bow of the windward boat or even slightly higher (depending on wind force). Closer to the slot I'm aiming my stern more and more into it. My boat is slightly oversensitive to the rudder adjustements while backing, and I found that it is easier and safer to adjust the positioning of the boat by short bursts of bowthruster, keeping rudder steady, but it is also perfectly doable without bowthruster, if You use the rudder very softly. Key thing is to find a proper level of tightening Your chain. Up to 20 knots of true crosswind I'm using remote for windlass. If it is blowing more, my wife is on the bow, controlling the windlass and visually checking the tightness of the chain. She is coming back to stern just when our stern is passing the bows of neighbouring boats. Long scope really helps for this method, as You do have some seconds more of the time for finding the right angle of backing the boat.
And I must admit, it is really nice to coming to the quay, in crosswind, slowly, steady, with people on the quay and other boats looking at You with some of disbelief in their eyes

On the other hand I used the method You described long time ago, with CQR anchor (before I owned a boat I chartered some so equipped) or with somewhat undersized (according to my present opinion) Delta on my first own boat. Since having Rocna as a bower I never needed to use this method, and frankly speaking I'm not great fan of the boats charging into their slots at great speeds I just prefer the situation being completely controllable.

My best regards



Tomasz

Thanks and yes, I have a bow thruster and use it as the sole method of steering in reverse when going slow. At the payout speed of the windlass, which is half a knot, the rudder is completely ineffective, unlike your boat it seems. Powerful though the bowthruster is, it can't cope with any tug from the chain pulling taut (OK, I have never put 100m out in a harbour, and I can see it would be easier if you did). It is also hard to do as I have no idea from the helm how taut the chain is. I probably could make it work, its just I find it a lot easier dumping the chain.

I agree on coming in slow. I don't like to dock fast.

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by weavis

Except for that other time in..........

Originally Posted by weavis

Except for once in..............

Can we learn anything about this Great And Mysterious Exception..?..

I hope for something for box of scoffers to discuss thoroughly...

[weavis]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Can we learn anything about this Great And Mysterious Exception..?..

I hope for something for box of scoffers to discuss thoroughly...

I would love to share with you........ actually I wouldnt.. because the boat I was on and used belongs to a friend of mine (the Princess) and he has no idea how close he came to making at least one insurance claim....

Let us just say, it pays to learn some basic knot skills and it pays to not use Florida waters experience to ever influence how to moor or use a boat in the Med.
I think his wife was suspicious but I have been married so I can keep a straight face and a smile through anything when required. I was lucky that the guy who did the buffing and waxing knew what he was doing....

nuff said.

My shame burns.

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by poiu

Thanks and yes, I have a bow thruster and use it as the sole method of steering in reverse when going slow. At the payout speed of the windlass, which is half a knot, the rudder is completely ineffective, unlike your boat it seems. Powerful though the bowthruster is, it can't cope with any tug from the chain pulling taut (OK, I have never put 100m out in a harbour, and I can see it would be easier if you did). It is also hard to do as I have no idea from the helm how taut the chain is. I probably could make it work, its just I find it a lot easier dumping the chain.

I agree on coming in slow. I don't like to dock fast.

It seems our anchor winch is a little faster at pay out, as we are doing just under 1 knot backward.
Other difference may be in a boat profile. I noticed You visited my profile page here, so may be You also had a look at our boat photos. This oversized bimini may somehow balance the boat in crosswind, not letting the bow to be blown off easy...
I also can not see my chain from the wheel but I'm doing this for so long as so often, that I can just "feel" it from boat behaviour. Of course to some extent only, so in stronger wind Beata is controlling chain and windlass from the bow. We got really compatible in this (happily not only in this)

On the other hand, first time in the season we are spending some time in first harbour, at the hours when it is quite empty, making some attempts to the quay, just to regain the skill. After some time without us on board the boat behaves like drunken pig while backing... And we need to learn again, how to make her obedient... Can not understand it...

Best regards

Tomasz

[poiu]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Read hinz book on anchoring, he make the point that in shallow water you need loads more scope then deep, upto 10x scope

Dave


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

What's the thinking behind that?

I thought scope was all about minimizing the pull out force and a given scope in shallow water is no different from the same in deep water is it?

[poiu]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

It seems our anchor winch is a little faster at pay out, as we are doing just under 1 knot backward.
Other difference may be in a boat profile. I noticed You visited my profile page here, so may be You also had a look at our boat photos. This oversized bimini may somehow balance the boat in crosswind, not letting the bow to be blown off easy...
I also can not see my chain from the wheel but I'm doing this for so long as so often, that I can just "feel" it from boat behaviour. Of course to some extent only, so in stronger wind Beata is controlling chain and windlass from the bow. We got really compatible in this (happily not only in this)

On the other hand, first time in the season we are spending some time in first harbour, at the hours when it is quite empty, making some attempts to the quay, just to regain the skill. After some time without us on board the boat behaves like drunken pig while backing... And we need to learn again, how to make her obedient... Can not understand it...

Best regards

Tomasz

Yes, I did look at the pictures. Nice close up detail shots. Maybe you could post some more? You do seem to have a lot of crew and that must account also for the windage. I really don't know how you manage to concentrate hard enough to dock that boat at all.

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by poiu

Yes, I did look at the pictures. Nice close up detail shots. Maybe you could post some more? You do seem to have a lot of crew and that must account also for the windage. I really don't know how you manage to concentrate hard enough to dock that boat at all.

I really used to sail with quite numerous crew some time ago
But now we are most often sailing as five: me, Beata, our Black Russian Terrier and two Chihuahuas.

I need to look for their close-ups

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by poiu

What's the thinking behind that?
I thought scope was all about minimizing the pull out force and a given scope in shallow water is no different from the same in deep water is it?

It looks like we need only to read one book, and we will know

[weavis]

[weavis]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

I really used to sail with quite numerous crew some time ago
But now we are most often sailing as five: me, Beata, our Black Russian Terrier and two Chihuahuas.

Do you find single handing your boat quite easy?

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by weavis

I prefer this one. Way more entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wxg30c6z00E

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Noelex,
it is probably first time here when I dare to disagree with You, at least to some extent

Disagree away. Different opinions are the forums strength
I am no expert in Med mooring at a quay I much prefer deserted anchorages so I get very little practice.

However, I think we are saying the same thing, that lots of chain when you are Med mooring is what to aim for.

My point about using scope rather boat lengths was more to illustrate the point that a 15m boat and a 10m boat are equally secure if they both drop 60m of chain (assuming the ground tackle is appropriately scaled and they are dropping in the same depth of water).

One boat has 4 boat length of chain out the other has 6 boat lengths of chain out. The scope, not the number of boat lengths of chain, more directly correlates to the security. Therefore it is better to to talk about scope rather than boat lengths of chain when discussing Med mooring. (Although when dropping the anchor using boat lengths is easier to judge)

When anchoring, or Med mooring it is the depth of water you drop in (ignoring tide) not the water that you end up in that determines your scope, but Med mooring usually means the anchor is pulled "uphill" which means the anchor shank angle (which is important for holding) will be better than the same scope when anchoring downhill which is usually the case when anchoring normally, but there is no swinging room to consider so let out lots of chain where there is room. Crosswinds can put a lot of force on the ground tackle.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by poiu

What's the thinking behind that?

I thought scope was all about minimizing the pull out force and a given scope in shallow water is no different from the same in deep water is it?

To ensure catenary and maintain the shank parallel to the sea bed.

Dave

[Andrew Troup]

Originally Posted by poiu

What's the thinking behind that?

I thought scope was all about minimizing the pull out force and a given scope in shallow water is no different from the same in deep water is it?

It's very different if the water is very shallow. This makes for notoriously difficult anchoring in bad conditions, for two reasons, of which insufficient length of chain to provided catenary is one.

(Other is nasty, steep-profiled seas)

Anchoring in the intertidal zone can be even worse, because the bottom is usually not properly consolidated because it intermittently dries out.

Clearly not many boats can get into such areas, or would be likely to want to anchor there. But it's worth bearing in mind if this looks like a viable tactic in short term of emergency situations in a shallow draft boat: expect diminished holding.

Catenary of course serves two purposes: improving the angle of pull on the anchor, and smoothing the energy delivered from the boat to the anchor originating from snubbing - snubbing induced by gusts and waves and sailing across the anchor.

But catenary cannot deliver either of these things if the chain is very short (as it will inevitably be in shallow water, if you use the same scope).

The further fly in the ointment is that even a very heavy chain on a very long scope will not provide much catenary for the second purpose, because there's just not room between surface and bottom.

The only truly incurable dragging situations I've encountered have been in shallow water.

ON EDIT: One thing it is easy to forget which makes a difference to scope in very shallow water is the height of the bow roller from the water (and, for some sounders, the distance of the transducer below it). It's easy to end up with a lot less scope than intended if neither of these is added to the depth shown by the sounder.

[weavis]

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup

It's very different if the water is very shallow. This makes for notoriously difficult anchoring in bad conditions, for two reasons, of which insufficient length of chain to provided catenary is one.

(Other is nasty, steep-profiled seas)

Anchoring in the intertidal zone can be even worse, because the bottom is usually not properly consolidated because it intermittently dries out.

Clearly not many boats can get into such areas, or would be likely to want to anchor there. But it's worth bearing in mind if this looks like a viable tactic in short term of emergency situations in a shallow draft boat: expect diminished holding.

Catenary of course serves two purposes: improving the angle of pull on the anchor, and smoothing the energy delivered from the boat to the anchor originating from snubbing induced by gusts and waves and sailing across the anchor.

But catenary cannot deliver either of these things if the chain is very short (as it will inevitably be in shallow water, if you use the same scope).

The further fly in the ointment is that even a very heavy chain on a very long scope will not provide much catenary for the second purpose, because there's just not room between surface and bottom.

The only truly incurable dragging situations I've encountered have been in shallow water.

Clearly explained. Thank you.