Modern Day Anchors

[cfarrar]

I'm convinced by Nick's (Steve Dashew's) plan. When a squall line rips through, it's too late to contemplate a bigger anchor. Your best bower needs to do the job 99% of the time.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Alloy as a primary is fine in that most people, most of the time, do not 'suffer' under winds more than, say 25 knots, and as long as you have some back up in case the conditions are much worse than forecast. I have met lots of 'cruisers' who carry a 'normal' sized anchor on their bow roller and a 'storm' (which is bigger) anchor (often under an amidships berth). I have also met a lot who carry a Fortress as a storm anchor. As long as you are cognisant of the limitations of whatever gear you have (and have that sensible fall back) then it should not be an issue.

I too have seen a torn apart alloy Spade, seams ripped open - quite an eye opener. But then I have seen other bent anchors as well (that were, mild?, steel).

Hi Jonjo,

I think our definitions of "cruisers" differ slightly... as I see it, cruisers have a primary, every day anchor that keep the boat safe even in squalls of 50-60 knots, which are common in the tropics.

One could think that our Fortress anchors are storm anchors because when we start deploying those, a storm is coming, but they can't be safely used without our primary anchor, hence I call them supplementary anchors. Cruisers only use them in situations where the direction of pull will not change during the storm. Like when tied to mangroves, or on a tidal river in Bahamian Moor setup etc.

Yes I have seen cruisers with funny primary anchors... mostly while they drag past. Some need the experience where they are the only one dragging about the place before they believe they need an anchor upgrade. After a little while cruising they all end up with decent gear and it's just the charter boats that need to be kept an eye on.

ciao!
Nick.

[JonJo]

Nick,

I cannot argue.

I swap my anchors depending on what I'm doing. If I'm sailing round Tasmania I use an Excel as my primary (the one on the bow roller) and I have Fortress and/or Spade as back-up, one usually ready to deploy immediately. There is usually a Storm warning every time we are in Tas and there always seems to be a Gale somewhere. If I'm pottering around in Pittwater or running up the coast (not tropical) I'm quite comfortable with an alloy Spade, or Fortress - if we had thunderstorms coming in I might swap for the gal Excel. I've lost enthusiasm for cruising in the Tropics - so, for me its not an issue. My original post on the alloy Spade might have been too superficial - I was really responding to Noelex' comment that suggested the alloy version did not set as well as the gal version - but then Noelex and I seldom agree

But I need to re-state - we only carry a 16kg Excel, have found it more than adequate, and changing a 16kg anchor for an alloy is simple. If I had a slightly bigger anchor I might be less enthusiastic.

And if the question is why - it is too easy to comment based on anecdotal (or even no) information - virtually every comment I make is based on having used the anchor in question (though not necessarily in Storm conditions.

To me strength is a different issue and its not one that is explored sufficiently.

If people posting on this and similar threads can support and/or recommend use of an anchor for which there is no indication of the steel quality used in the shank without a single negative comment - then shank strength is less of the issue that Anchor Right and Manson might like to suggest. I agree with AR and M, but not many seem concerned.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Nick,
If people posting on this and similar threads can support and/or recommend use of an anchor for which there is no indication of the steel quality used in the shank without a single negative comment - then shank strength is less of the issue that Anchor Right and Manson might like to suggest. I agree with AR and M, but not many seem concerned.

I agree that strength is an issue. I know that Bruce got the name to have bent shanks but whenever I went to see, I found a knock-off. I believe that Bruce used to have a life long warranty against bent shanks.

Tearing anchors apart: the only anchors I have seen torn apart were alloy Spade, alloy Fortress, steel Danforth (knockoff I think), CQR (pin), those folding dredge thinghies, and silly stuff like "happy hookers" etc. that are all variations on the Danforth. Basically, these are anchors with either a design flaw like the CQR, or they have too much holding power for their constructional strength like all the Danforth types.

Anchors with bent parts I've seen are CQR, knock-off Bruce (once an original), steel Spade, Danforth, Fisherman, Rocna, Bugel, Delta and alloy Fortress. The Bugel worried me the most as it's whole fluke was bent over and it looked like a natural thing to bend like that often as it is just flat material without corner reinforcements.

Reading the above, I think every anchor can bend parts, specially when anchoring on rock, dead coral, wreckage etc.

[cwyckham]

Originally Posted by flash

Just curious if anyone has experience with the new Manson Boss? Been trying to decide between that and the more expensive Spade. Supreme wont fit my roller and I don't want to modify. Thanks.

Yes. It's huge and sets well. You may not want to upsize too much.

I've only used it in light conditions so far, but it holds great at fill revs in reverse

[Olesargesas]

Cotemar.

AS Standard steel is the same in China as it is in Australia. In fact there is more Chinese and Korean AS Standard steel used in Australia than there is genuine Australian. Even Blue Scope the main steel producer imports top-ups from China on the quiet.

China is far from what it used to be. Also most of China steel is Australian anyway because its made from Aussie Iron Ore.

China only export the China substandard stuff to US and Canada.

[Olesargesas]

Jedi

I share your view that the primary should always be able to handle 50 - 60 knots minimum in good holding. We have anchorages where we get 60 knot plus bullets in 25 - 30 knot blows.

In addition we also get 60 knot plus constant blows on times.

It is all about strength, holding, and the type of ground you predominately anchor in for such events, given a choice. If no choice you need the strongest, best holding, most versatile anchor available.

In my personal view thats an Excel. A little oversize.

Each to their own, unlike some others I respect other peoples views and preferences.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Olesargesas

Jedi

I share your view that the primary should always be able to handle 50 - 60 knots minimum in good holding. We have anchorages where we get 60 knot plus bullets in 25 - 30 knot blows.

In addition we also get 60 knot plus constant blows on times.

It is all about strength, holding, and the type of ground you predominately anchor in for such events, given a choice. If no choice you need the strongest, best holding, most versatile anchor available.

In my personal view thats an Excel. A little oversize.

Each to their own, unlike some others I respect other peoples views and preferences.

I almost agree with you. But in my opinion, you need an anchor that provides you near 100% security in the conditions described. That is not just the Excel anchor.

The Excel anchor is however, one possible choice. My Bruce also gives that 100% security to our boat. If I would choose a Rocna or Excel or Spade I might do with 50kg instead of the 80kg I have now. I mean, our anchor compensates for less holding power by being much heavier. That weight brings many more advantages like superior strength, penetrating grass etc. but also many disadvantages like carrying more weight, probably a bigger windlass etc.

I guess what I mean to say is that you just need to work out which anchors work for the boat. That list might hold many anchors of different weights and different sizes. Next you check which one fits the bow-roller best etc. In the end you come up with a couple of choices that are best for that particular boat, while another boat might well come up with a different list.

"The best anchor" only exists in marketing.

cheers,
Nick.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Olesargesas

Cotemar.

AS Standard steel is the same in China as it is in Australia. In fact there is more Chinese and Korean AS Standard steel used in Australia than there is genuine Australian. Even Blue Scope the main steel producer imports top-ups from China on the quiet.

China is far from what it used to be. Also most of China steel is Australian anyway because its made from Aussie Iron Ore (AND COAL!)

China only export the China substandard stuff to US and Canada.

The steel used in the shanks of anchors is chosen by the specifier. If he chooses 250 MPa steel500 MPa steel or 800 MPa steel - then he should get what he asks for, its easy to check. As you say Chinese steel can be to exactly the same specifications as might be available from Oz or USA suppliers - its the specifier (they might be a UK company or an American chandler) who determines what is used.

I'm interested - the comment has been made negatively of alloy anchors because they might be weak.

as an example: Cotemar - what anchor do you use and what quality of steel is used in your anchor shank?

Noelex what quality is used in yours?

Jedi, yours

Kettlewell.?

I'm just wondering how many might blindly condemn alloy - but have actually no idea (apart from hearsay) which quality of steel is used in their own anchors.

I know an Excel has a Bis 80 shank, because that's what AR say (and I checked by testing it). I know the Supreme I have is either Bis 80, or something close, because Manson say so, and I tested it.

So Cotemar, you are about to test a Mantus, what is the shank made from?

[Olesargesas]

JonJo

I thought the Supreme was Gr.350

[Olesargesas]

Jedi

I'm definately not saying if you go for a modern anchor go lighter, quite the opposite. I'm with you, I will take the weight penalty and lease just one anchor up front with the stern as an emergency.

Going extra heavy with your primary is less boat weight than carrying two, providing also you have not skimped on your winch size as well.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I agree that strength is an issue. I know that Bruce got the name to have bent shanks but whenever I went to see, I found a knock-off. I believe that Bruce used to have a life long warranty against bent shanks.

Tearing anchors apart: the only anchors I have seen torn apart were alloy Spade, alloy Fortress, steel Danforth (knockoff I think), CQR (pin), those folding dredge thinghies, and silly stuff like "happy hookers" etc. that are all variations on the Danforth. Basically, these are anchors with either a design flaw like the CQR, or they have too much holding power for their constructional strength like all the Danforth types.

Anchors with bent parts I've seen are CQR, knock-off Bruce (once an original), steel Spade, Danforth, Fisherman, Rocna, Bugel, Delta and alloy Fortress. The Bugel worried me the most as it's whole fluke was bent over and it looked like a natural thing to bend like that often as it is just flat material without corner reinforcements.

Reading the above, I think every anchor can bend parts, specially when anchoring on rock, dead coral, wreckage etc.

If you simply list the anchors that bend or tear (and read you post a bit later, when you endorse a genuine Bruce) then the suspect anchors are:

Spade, alloy and gal
Fortress
Danforth (I assume you mean genuine)
Fishermans (I'm guessing unknown suppliers)
Delta
CQR
copy Bruce (brand name? or unknown origin?)
Rocna
Bugel, I'm less surprised - its 316 stainless, though very chunky.

You omit Supreme and Excel (I'm guessing you have never seen the latter, let alone a bent one)

We are left with, your genuine Bruce (which we cannot buy) and though your post was brief - it seems alloy is no worse than Danforth, Rocna, Delta. So given that we need to use something that will stand 60 knots - what's it to be?

Basically I think you are saying every anchor can bend, except those with 800 MPa shanks?

[bobconnie]

I still think, no matter what style of anchor you have, Size is first, and lot's and lot's of chain is next !! Connie and I have anchord without to much problems all over the place. With nothing but old style anchors. Sure most of the time we were just hanging there in a small breeze if any at all ! But we spent our time at the heavy wind places also!! We have had the un-pleasure of sitting out cat 3s Twice!! and its no fun, but it's doable even with old style anchors, if ya do all the things ya can to make the boat stable ! And hope ya have enough cover from the land or the mangroves hold ! But it seems to me that if ya have the new anchors and the same amounts of good chain your way ahead of the game !! I might be old fashion about the new electronics and stuff, but when it comes to my ground tackel I want the best !!! just my 2 cents

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Noelex what quality is used in yours?

Jedi, yours

Kettlewell.?

I'm just wondering how many might blindly condemn alloy - but have actually no idea (apart from hearsay) which quality of steel is used in their own anchors.

My concern with the alloy spade is that IMHO does not set and perform as well.
It is a pity because the steel version is very good.


I suspect a purpose designed and developed alloy anchor (rather than simply a copy of a steel version) could work well. The lighter material should allow for greater tip weight and a larger fluke area which could more than compensate for the reduced overall weight, in the correct design.

There is no reason why an alloy shank cannot be made strong enough. Anchor shanks need to be as light as possible on most designs which causes anchor designers to make them only just strong enough. An alloy shank, with the right engineering, could be made strong without a great weight penalty. I have not heard of any alloy Spades failing, but from Jedi's comments it seems like this may be an issue as well. The Spades shank is hollow so it would seem spade could solve the problem with slightly thicker aluminium.

My primary anchor is a 55kg Rocna. The shank is about 20mm thick steel and I cannot imagine bending it with my boat no matter what grade of steel was used in its manufacture, but its a NZ version so presumably 800 Mpa.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by bobconnie

Gosh, gone are the days of the CQR, Danforth, Fisherman, anchors! How did we ever get any sleep at anchor before the New Modern anchors were invented?? Gosh I guess Im gonna have to spend a bunch of boat dollars for a new style anchor to replace the 100 lb Danforth on my new to me ketch !! I guess I will have to sell a bunch of stuff, or take out a loan in order to get any sleep !! darn the world changes so fast !! I just can't keep up! must be from all the sleep Ive lost out on in the last 40 yrs !!!Ya think ??

Bob, I agree if you are happy with the older designs and its doing the job not much point in spending the boat bucks.

Fourty years ago virtually all we had available for the GBR was a CQR and all chain and you made sure the CQR was big enough.

Fitting out a vessel today I believe there are better anchors available so I guess the reason for all the discussion and why such threads are valuable is one can get some idea of the various anchors and their abilities in various conditions.

That gives us Mantus, Manson Supreme, Manson Boss, Spade, Rocna, Sarca Exce, Super Sarca and Ultra. Quite a lot.

In coral areas bending of shanks is possible and that rules out Al and any shanks not using Bis 80 for me.