Not satisfied with Windlass operation

[rslifkin]

It's hit or miss as far as how well builders reinforce the deck for a windlass or any other hardware. Some do a great job, others do the bare minimum.

I was lucky in terms of construction. My boat has the windlass mounted through the rather sturdy pulpit, so that helps to spread the load on the top of the deck. For the deck itself in that area, there's the top skin, 1/2" of balsa core, the bottom deck skin, then an inch of plywood and another layer of fiberglass. Overall deck thickness in that area is at least 2 inches. I added a 1/4" G10 backing plate to the bottom (pulpit, windlass, and samson post all mount through this). The backing plate and thicker area of deck are about 4 square feet, and the pulpit provides almost that much surface on top of the deck. So it would be very hard to cause a deck failure in that area.

[Muaddib1116]

Using thickened epoxy, I'll be bedding in a 1'x3' (approx.) 3/4" thick g10 board under the deck section where the windlass mounts. The new windlass will be bolted through the deck and g10. That should probably be strong and stiff enough.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

Autopilot- mine isn't smart enough to hover in position in bad conditions, I have to be making forward progress. I also have a remote for the autopilot, but I'm not smart enough to operate it from the bow, while also dealing with the chain! I do think the nicer idea is for the human never to have to go forward at all- press a button and anchor pulls in when it can, snubs itself when it can't, and then shuts off (or just clutch slips) when it reaches the bow roller.

Autopilot remote? Ours AP only steers, doesn't control gears or throttles. A Yacht Controller (a brand name) or similar could do everything... but I think most AP remotes only steer or jog.

Our anchor pretty much does that kind of retrieve, though, if I choose to bring in the anchor while I'm still on the flybridge. Remote windlass controls, Voila!

That's influenced by the anchor davit/roller, anchor design and size, etc.

I do have to go forward to open the chain stopper before deploying the anchor... and to close the chain stopper just before we do the final anchor set... and after retrieving the anchor when we're getting underway. Brief walk forward, do it, done.

-Chris

[markxengineerin]

I have a Simrad Robertson AP26, and the remote control is homemade, only controls the target heading. It is not the "non follow up" NFU type. There is no throttle control and my throttle is mechanical, cable actuated, so that's part of the challenge, but even if it could be operated remotely, I don't think it would be particularly easy to drive the boat from the pitching bow. So that would become a programming/controls challenge - certainly do-able (hover boat over anchor location using GPS target) , but not something I'm very good at.

These ones look set up for power boats with bow thrusters, and it's not clear if they will "hover" automatically or does it depend on the user to provide continuous inputs? I am interested in the alternative approach here, just dubious if it is practical in bad conditions, when my human brain struggles to maintain boat position with better ability to plan ahead than a computer program might have.

[ABJ87]

What your describing is an ideal application for hydraulics. Drive the chain wheel with either a direct drive or with a planetary reduction gear. Do your overload with a relief valve and/or bypass valve.

Lots of 12v hydraulic pumps available.

[donradcliffe]

I always used a snubber, but the chainstopper you have was very handy when the snubber broke. It was more strongly mounted than yours.

Snubbing with the windlass can result in a bent windlass shaft. Happened to our friends in Rangiroa Lagoon when the wind switched and they were on a lee shore with 30 miles of fetch and their chain was caught under a bommie. Something had to give.

It can also result in windlass mounting failure. I remember one hilarious charter checkin on the VHF in the Witsundays.

" Can you bring us out another anchor?"
"OK, what happened?"
"Can you also send out someone to fix the bolts for the windlass?"
"The windlass bolts seem to be broken. It wasn't our fault, mind you."

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

These ones look set up for power boats with bow thrusters, and it's not clear if they will "hover" automatically or does it depend on the user to provide continuous inputs? I am interested in the alternative approach here, just dubious if it is practical in bad conditions, when my human brain struggles to maintain boat position with better ability to plan ahead than a computer program might have.

Any boat, with power and at least bow thruster I think. Stern thruster maybe optional... or maybe if boats don't have a stern thruster too, owners just don't bother to install a Yacht Controller or similar...

Not sure about hover. Boats with pod drives (Volvo IPS, ZF Zeus, etc.) or independently aimed outboards can do that... not sure if YC or similar are also connected to GPS and other network info.

But all that seems like overkill for lowering and raising an anchor. Seems like you could stay at the helm to drive the boat, run the anchor up and down from the helm with windlass remotes.

Go forward briefly to open the chain stopper to anchor, do everything else from the helm. Go forward briefly to close the chain stopper after retrieval, do everything else from the helm.

-Chris

[Pete the Cat]

Originally Posted by nuku34

With respect to the OP:
1) Animals have "paws", winches have "pawls".


2) No small electric windlass is designed to pull the boat up to the anchor, in 40+ knots of wind, with big swell and current, unless you motor up to the anchor as the chain comes in. Every windlass manufacturer, including Maxwell, includes a specific warning against using the windlass to pull the boat up to the anchor. Doing so in the conditions you describe is total misuse of the winch as you found out when you stuffed the gearbox with the shock/over load. Even using an anchor stopper with spring loaded pawl, you will still be overloading the winch as you force it to pull much more weight than it was designed for (in-between clicks of the pawl).

You can of course use the winch to pull the boat forward toward the anchor in a dead calm or light wind with no swell, but not in the case you describe.


3) I appreciate the problem you have as a single hander. I have been there and had to raise anchor in similar situations. I did it by running back and forth between the helm and the bow, motoring forward a bit, taking up the chain slack with the windlass, then back to the helm. This was NOT fun and it took a long time.


4) The best way to deal with this situation is a remote control (either wired or wireless) on the windlass so you can be back at the helm driving the boat forward as you control the windlass. Still not ideal, because if you are not right at the bow, it is hard to know which direction to seer toward the anchor.


5) My 40ft "Joshua" steel ketch (which did Antarctica and the Magellan Straits) had a heavy duty horizontal hydraulic anchor windlass which could pull 4 tons and had 80 meters of 12mm chain. This winch was impossible to break or burn out because if overloaded it just stopped until the load got less. That would also solve your problem!


6) To conclude, it is not the "windlass operation", but the extreme use and situation in which you are trying to use it.

Indeed. I second all the above. None of these recreational windlasses will do what you seem to want to do with them. An industrial model that is capable would put your bow under water with its weight. I am a single hander with thousands of miles and many anchorages. A remote control is essential and using the motor to get up to the anchor and a chain stopper to break out the anchor is the alternative. I also would recommend that you not wait in an anchorage until you have 30 kts and swells to take action. Much of what you are talking about is about seamanship, not equipment.

[vpbarkley]

Windlasses are hopelessly underpowered. They draw a huge amount of current for the work that they do.

Worm gearing is the least efficient form of gearing and is vulnerable to stripping with only 1 or 2 teeth engaged.

Worm gearing is not back-drivable which increases its vulnerability to failure from shock loading.

The average 12V winch uses planetary gearing, can pull tons of load and uses far less current.

Planetary gearing is much stronger with many teeth engaged and much more efficient. It is back drivable.

A stronger windlass requires a large mount to spread the load into the deck and hull. For increased pull capability a larger diameter gypsy would likely be required.

Shock absorption for swells would require yards of travel. A spring is not a shock absorber; damping dissipates shock energy over a longer period of time.

[BAD ORCA]

Originally Posted by markxengineerin

I agree with most of your points, and if there really is no hardware solution (or easier technique) besides "bigger/heavier windlass", I will make it myself!

No- I loosen the clutch so that no components can feel any forces between clicks- the chain simply goes back out until the next pawl engages.

Your #3 is the technique that I use, and the Anchor app directs me to the right location. I do have a remote, but never use it, because I currently need to be at the bow anyway to operate the pawls and clutch. The biggest problem is at the very end, trying to break the anchor free, if it is deeply buried. There is no way to apply a constant/reasonable pressure to raise it, and the wave action causes severe shock loads enough to shake the whole boat. I am surprised the chain, anchor, pawl, or bowsprit have not yet broken.

I think a solution that spreads out some of this shock would be an improvement, and it's surprising that no manufacturer has already solved these problems- we don't need to invent new mechanisms, it's application of a ratchet, a torque limiting device, and some damping to the existing windlass design, for a much better and safer experience, even for boats with crew.

It seems like that if bow rollers were made with a slight extension, maybea foot or so, and that that extension was hinged downward, if there was an extremely heavy duty spring or hydraulic type shock that could be engaged that conected the front hinged, and the rear portion of the bow roller, that it could act as a shock absorbing lever, absorbing a lot of those heavy shock loads when your right over the anchor. Mountain bikes have shocks that can be locked out when not needed and unlocked for use when needed.

[CarinaPDX]

The problem is not the hardware: many of us use similar windlasses without your problems. The problem is with your expectations, complicated by a less than optimal installation. As a singlehander who anchored with a manual windlass for years I know the fire drill of running fore and aft - it is dangerous and an accident waiting to happen.

The answer is pretty simple: install a chain counter (with up/down control) at the helm. When retrieving the anchor move the boat slowly forward under power while recovering the chain using the helm-mounted switches (in the counter). If necessary stop occasionally and go forward to knock down the chain. Usually when the chain is vertical the anchor will lift with only moderate effort; if stuck then go forward, secure the chain, then motor ahead to break loose, then haul in from the helm after going forward to undo the chain. The windlass is designed to lift the chain and anchor, not pull the boat up against wind and waves, or break loose a fouled anchor. If you use it properly you won't have these problems. And you will love having a chain counter when paying out your chain, knowing the scope as you go. It also helps to know how close to the roller the anchor is when raising it, which is usually not visible from the helm.

Either that, or you can re-engineer the windlass and gear - good luck with that.

Greg

[Jlp0217]

Nobody noticed or commented on the fact that he said he is using the clutch to prevent the worm drive from slipping! A worm drive should not be able to slip. It cannot be driven from the load side, only by the motor. If it can skip a tooth, it or the bearings or more likely both are worn out. Replace them and things will work much better. Properly engineered, the worm drive should be stronger than the gipsy drive shaft, so the shaft should bend or a keyway sheared before the drive is damaged.

I raise my anchor from the bow. I pull in a few feet of chain, until the angle between the chain and the water decreases, and then wait while the original angle returns, then a few more feet, etc. This is far less load on the windlass than actually lifting the anchor off the bottom. I use my bow thrusters to keep the chain lined up with the rollers. Once the angle of the chain to water increases, then Im pretty much over the anchor, and I only use short bursts on the windlass until the anchor breaks free (pull the bow down a little, then wait for it come back up , repeat). Then I raise the anchor a few more feet and go to the helm to steer (preferably in reverse) to deeper, more open water.
I can only raise ~15 feet of chain at most before I have to push the pile in the chain locker down, so running to the bow every 15 feet is not doable.

[blazing928]

Mostly a power boat user, though I can sail- rya coastal skipper

Yacht controllers and Dockmate are brilliant but require new “ drive by wire “ steering and throttle controls.
They do not ‘ hover’ . That is an intergrated system Volvo use with IPS, it’s horribly expensive.
Outboard manufacturers are also now doing them.

I think there are more commercial units that may be able to integrate with cable, but I’d gather the cost would be prohibitive.

I use a remote windlass control at the helm so I can motor up. Not really any more than mid 20s knots - no point fishing then ::-)

So a windlass remote , with counter, would imho be an asset.

I’d install a bow mounted camera as well. Most modern MFD will connect to them. There are wireless systems used by trucks and caravan owners.

Good luck

[rpackard]

Step one is to install a wireless remote. You can buy a wireless remote garage door type transmitter and receiver on eBay for less than $20. Let the relay in that garage door opener close the switch for the big relay on your winless. With the remote system, you can be anywhere on the boat and operate the winless up or down.

Step two; install a wireless inexpensive back up camera on your bow looking down on the chain. With the display near your helm, you can drive forward watching the chain while operating the winless.

[pbmaise]

I found, as others have already noted, it is impossible to lift anchor on a larger vessel in heavy conditions with one person. In very heavy conditions, I found it requires 3. I was always on the bow, one crew member relayed my hand signals, and the third person was on the engine.

Asides,

1. I always had to teach crew how to count calmly count out three seconds.

2. Buttons to control the windlass in the cockpit are a far bigger danger than they are worth since someone is almost always needed forward.

3. A bow pulpit is a necessary item on on vessel with a chain roller mounted in front of the forward stay. I consider it is unsafe aboard many catamarans to lift anchor in weather conditions.

Note: It is possible to singlehanded defend a vessel on anchor. This requires watching the GPS and being on the engine. I never got a crew member trained this far so personally had to attend to this procedure.