Not satisfied with Windlass operation

[pbmaise]

The setup on my vessel was very similar to the OP's. That looks like the exact same chain pawl I had, and I also had a Maxwell windlass.

I too was considered about fingers when operating the chain pawl. That was another reason I personally attended to lifting anchor. I only moved the lever on the pawl using the palm of my hands or sole of my foot. Never use a shoe with loose laces. I see the OP has a wire attached to the lever, that might be good only to keep the pawl from accidentally engaging while dropping anchor.

However, that wire on the lever might be a source of trouble if it hinders the lever from dropping into place or gets between the lever and chain.

Any tension on the chain between the forward chain pawl and the windlass defeats the forward pawl. Therefore, as a rule, after anchoring and setting the chain in the pawl I always let out a little chain from the windlass until the chain was slack between pawl and and windlass.

I also made sure all tension was off the windlass and turned freely. This helped ensure the windlass ran free when dropping anchor.

OP, are you standing on your chain when setting the forward pawl? I found my weight was necessary to set the chain proper within that pawl. I never had a failure after setting the chain properly in the same exact pawl you are using.

[gulfislandfred]

Hydraulic windlass as described is what fishers use, often with a big spool on deck for the chain and line. Many commercial boats use galvanized wire rope plus chain.



It's possible to drive the same system with an electric motor, but a hydraulic system can have an adjustable over pressure valve that acts as a shock absorber,



If you can, look at commercial boats that work in your area, and see what they use. Where I live, boats that fish all year have anchor winches that look huge to me. They can usually be controlled from the wheelhouse, where the operator can see the anchor come up into its resting place.


The anchor systems most of us use are toys, compared to what is used on boats that routinely work in the conditions described.

[markxengineerin]

Ideas I like but cost too much/too difficult to try as a first step:
-Mountain bike "smart shock"
-Change over to hydraulic drive
-Change over to different type of gearbox
-Huge Fisherman style windlass

Usually when the chain is vertical the anchor will lift with only moderate effort

This is not what I have found, in bad conditions. I've already deformed the bronze pawl, and after this, next may be a broken chain or anchor.

The motion of the waves + boat inertia against a deeply buried anchor is pretty serious when it runs hard into a rigid chain stopper.
What's needed is some kind of compliance in the pawl/chain stopper/whatever mechanism is used to secure the chain at the moment of un-setting (to be done by boat/wave power, not the windlass), and also to temporarily hold the chain while I un-hook the snubber. (I did finish the calculations on a "spring snubber". The numbers don't work, can't compete with a nylon rode in a realistic package volume)
The rest of the problems are solved assuming a working cone clutch, remote control, chain counter, anchor app, etc etc. I have all that stuff already, along with a $4,000 windlass that I want to keep.

To those saying "just avoid those conditions"- I like to use and then leave an anchorage in bad conditions for any number of reasons- usually because these are great times to sail, not burn fuel, make great time getting places. Cruising has enough restrictions on it, this just might remove one, and as a side effect make anchoring a more pleasant experience.

Here's what's going to be first iteration:

If it's just a spring slider w/ no damping, a nice thing is that I could put a tracker on it (like the tracker needle of a barometer) and know what the peak forces were. I do agree though, having some damping would be best. Ideas for a cheap, adjustable damper?
I think the guess and check method for spring rates + damping is going to be what I end up with. Springs are easy, need ideas with the damper.

The removable pin is because the anchor won't fully seat on the bow roller with it in there permanently, but it will certainly help keep things aligned up until the very end when the tough part is over with.

Thanks for the continued feedback- as always, has been helpful to look at the different sides of a problem.

[gulfislandfred]

I don't know how many here have had to leave an anchorage because conditions have become dangerous. Or have to pull and reset in heavy weather. If the anchor has dragged, it may have set well, just too close to a rocky shore.


If you cruise, even in your local area, long enough, you may need a robust retrieval system. Single handed adds another layer of risk.



I like a combination chain and nylon line anchor rode. Built in snubber. I have had a situation where I brought the nylon rode back to a sheet winch so I could work from the cockpit.


Is your bowsprit now the weak link? What load will it take?


Do you have hull protection where the anchor will swing into the hull as it comes up? Sometimes you have to get moving when the anchor is just clear of the water, get some sea room, then lie ahull and tidy up.



I like the fixed pawl on a sliding mount idea. Maybe the deck track like on or near the rail that holds turning blocks for the jib sheets? Those take a hell of a load when a big genny flaps and fills with bang.
As you say, many options for springs. just a heavy duty coil with a hook on either end? Available in stainless?

[markxengineerin]

The bowsprit- maybe, it's fastened with looks like six 3/8" thru bolts to the deck. The stainless itself is degraded- I noticed cracks forming on one of the gussets (not from anchor loads) and started an attempt to re-Tig weld, the material just turned orange and burned away, reminded me of welding rusty mild steel.

I would like to replace the whole bowsprit with a structure that doesn't need a bobstay, because the bob-stay "chain plate" is stainless steel, oxygen starved, and glassed into a completely inconvenient spot. I don't like having an essential part of the rig fastened at the waterline, first thing to hit something half-submerged.

Hull protection hasn't been an issue so far- by the time the anchor is at that level, the windlass is pulling up full speed ahead. I solved my chain locker pile-up issues, so I'm quick once the anchor is free, and the overhang of bowsprit is enough to keep a distance.

For springs, I was thinking of using an array of compression springs, maybe in such a way that it's easy to add/remove force as desired. First iteration will probably be steel (galvanized?), for cost reasons, and maybe upgrade to stainless once the idea works (or doesn't!). What I have in mind is 1-2" diameter, maybe 3" to 6" long for each one, may put them both in series and parallel.
Where to aim for maximum force when compressed? I was thinking 1500 pounds, and take up anything beyond that with a hard rubber end stopper. I will do some looking into dimensions.

[TrentePieds]

Mark:

I've read the entire thread carefully, and where others have only hinted, I'll make bold to say that I think you are letting your engineering training get in the way of developing sound seamanship. But do not get angry with me. I hope to help :-)!

Firstly, your Pacific Seacraft is only an eight ton boat. Call it ten tons, fully laden for cruising. It has, so sez the specs, a 50 HP hengyne. That is MORE than enuff to overcome her windage even in forty knots of wind. Chop is something we can consider separately, but in brief, if chop in an anchorage rises to the point where it gives you cause for concern — best get yourself outta there. Get out sea where you can be safe :-)!

As others have said, the windlass – in your case a capstan, 'cause it has a VERTICAL shaft – is NOT meant to haul the ship up to the anchor. In a small ship like yours and mine a capstan is an affectation we indulge in because we play at being big ships. Sometimes it's useful for stowing the rode, but not always. Mine is useless for handling a three-laid salt-encrusted rope hawser because, although it's correctly installed, without help from me it won't grip a rope stiff with salt. Worse than that, the spurling pipe, the pipe through the deck that takes the rode from above deck to below deck is too small to handle the rope to chain splice without help from me.

Well, no matter. To haul, I start then engine and leave her in neutral, i.e, at “STOP” in engine telegraph terminology. I go forward, and with good old Mr. Armstrong's pulley-hauley I bring the boat forward. Whatever rode comes aboard I just drop nonchalantly on deck and leave it there for subsequent tidy up. Being a chicken sort of guy, I really don't DO 40 knotters, so I don't really know if I could haul TP to “up'n'down” in forty knots of wind. I do know that if the hauling gets tough, I take the rode back to a sheet winch and let it help me. Again, the recovered rode just drops onto the deck. After all it is unlikely that there will be more than a coupla hunnert feet of it :-). IF, at this point, the cranking gets hard, I go, for a quick moment only, to “SLOW AHEAD” on the engine controls. To us that means “Idle RPM, Forward Gear”. As I said: For a moment only before returning to “STOP”. That imparts enuff forward momentum that I can bring in some more rode. Rinse and repeat as necessary.

By and by, you'll be “up'n'down” i.e., the rode will be straight up and down because your boat will be directly above the anchor. So, in a PS37, at this time you probably have out 30 feet or so of 5/16” chain. That is all the weight (plus the anchor's weight, of course) you have to lift to get the anchor in the chocks. Even at MY decrepit end of life, I can do that. You are a young man. You would ace it. :-)

Don't mess with fixed, permanently installed chain stops. They are the devil's work. Use instead a “devil's claw”. A devil's claw is a simple chain hook chosen to fit your chain. It is spliced to a length of rope. Use three-laid. It is dead easy and quick to splice. Clap the hook onto the chain just inboard of your bow rollers, take the running part of the rope to a samson post on your foredeck if you have one, else to the drum on the capstan, tauten up and belay with a bollard hitch. Your anchor is now as secure in the chocks as it could possibly be, and all there is left for you to do is tidy up the deck at your convenience by stowing the anchor rode in the chain locker. You can do that once your sails are drawing.

Remember what one of your engineering profs is sure to have told you: Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem

All the best :-)
TrentePieds

[gulfislandfred]

That bowsprit needs some attention, for sure.

The bowsprit is in compression, with the bobstay and forestay attached. If you take away the bobstay, the upward force on the bowsprit will be more than it was designed to handle. How about a solid bobstay, or Dyneema, or one of the other newer strong plastic fibre lines.

If you're worried about electrolysis, maybe you can find an old monel shaft, and put fittings on the ends. Monel is electrically neutral.

[pbmaise]

I wouldn't classify the lever of the chain pawl as "deformed". It looks like normal wear after many years of service.

Wouldn't buying a new lever without the wear hold the chain better? Again, it looks like I had the exact same pawl on a far larger vessel in the Philippines and a typhoon hit while on anchor. My chain pawl didn't fail.

In fact, given the size of your vessel. I wonder if this chain pawl used to be on a different vessel and was reused on yours. Make sure it is the right size for your chain. If it is too big for the chain that could also be a source of problems.

See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rube_Goldberg_machine

[pbmaise]

This option is even cheaper than finding a new lever for the pawl.

They sell two different sizes.

https://www.helmstock.com/chain-grip...tor-68-mm.html

https://www.helmstock.com/chain-grip...r-1012-mm.html