Only One Anchor

[Seeratlas]

Originally Posted by Mike Banks

Thermit is indeed useful for setting off unexploded ordinance, naval mines, melting through vital equipment parts and destroying radio masts and power pylon supports etc--lotsa fun--but it is also used for in-situ welding of railway iron tracks and steel propellors--in fact any situation requiring high temperature and long cooling times, and it can be alloyed to produce a similar weld metal to the parent.

Against it is the need to have a good mould and to have the parent metals securely clamped so that they do not move and fracture the mould. Thermit welding is really a casting process. It is very strong and should be used more than it is--since there are no chill zones in the final weld. Yes it does get very hot--that is why the mould must be of such good quality and dry.

Check the welds in the rail tracks. Most, especially in Australia, will be thermit welds. Bloody wonderful stuff--aluminium powder mixed with iron oxide powder--and other powdered metals in proportion to the parent metal alloys may be included so the weld will match the parent metals--all things going smoothly.

Cheap to make and fun to use--it will weld heavy stuff quite well. No use at all on light guage metals though. It just dissolves them. Not quite sure about the Junk in the Sun--better clue me in--

Do not rely on the welds of your anchor made at home by any process. Have them tested.

Re 'junk in the sun', you got the gist of it. Didn't see you were an aussie
in US military parlance it's slang for the EOD boys.."Explosive Ordinance Disposal" nice guys but the practical jokes are HELL

Never seen anyone use the thermite to weld. Thanks for the info, learn something new every day well, almost heheheh.

Re testing the welds, like I said above, when I get the first one built, I'll drag it around the pasture with the dozer. If it can take that, I won't sweat a boat floating in water .

seer

[OldYachtie]

Seer, my point isn't that you, personally, don't know enough to make an anchor, it is that you had better know as much as an experienced, certified welder who is experienced using the particular material of which you intend to make your anchor.

As to Canadian pride, I typically refer to the huge Canadian ensigns seen on Canadian yachts from BC as Canadian mizzens. "You might just be a Canadian if your ensign is bigger than your trysail." How many square meters is your ensign? As I am only about 100 miles from BC, I hope I am far enough to survive your planned anchor construction quality test, eh?

My old boat's anchor roller is still there after 50,000 nm, because I had it welded out of 1/4" ss. I laugh when I see the puny anchor rollers sold by chandleries. I used a 1/2" shackle with my 3/8" chain. Contrary to what is often claimed, a 1/2" pin goes through a 3/8" BBB link just fine. If you use a swivel (recommended for all chain rode by Eric Hiscock,) you put the bow through the swivel and the pin through the chain. I would use HT 40 (G4) chain these days.

I have read all of Hiscock's books, and don't recall him ever dragging. I think most people who drag anchors simply failed to dig them in, probably out of ignorance.

[Seeratlas]

Originally Posted by OldYachtie

Seer, .....

As to Canadian pride, I typically refer to the huge Canadian ensigns seen on Canadian yachts from BC as Canadian mizzens. "You might just be a Canadian if your ensign is bigger than your trysail." How many square meters is your ensign? As I am only about 100 miles from BC, I hope I am far enough to survive your planned anchor construction quality test, eh?

My old boat's anchor roller is still there after 50,000 nm, because I had it welded out of 1/4" ss. I laugh when I see the puny anchor rollers sold by chandleries. I used a 1/2" shackle with my 3/8" chain. Contrary to what is often claimed, a 1/2" pin goes through a 3/8" BBB link just fine. If you use a swivel (recommended for all chain rode by Eric Hiscock,) you put the bow through the swivel and the pin through the chain. I would use HT 40 (G4) chain these days.

I have read all of Hiscock's books, and don't recall him ever dragging. I think most people who drag anchors simply failed to dig them in, probably out of ignorance.

Yachtie, hehehe, no need to worry, have relocated to ne Florida so if the shackle let's loose...it probably won't get that far
And yeah, i've seen those mizzens too, they seem to have gotten bigger during these last few "Bush" years too !!! heheheh but alas, I'm a yank tho I did think about marrying a pretty little Canadian girl once,,, but I found out that to bend one over and do the deed, you had to stand in line behind 3 layers of government!!!

seer

[GMac]

there's no way these anchors should cost what these guys want for them..... no way in hell.

raw steel cost
welding machine
consumables
space to do it in
the persons time for doing it
design costs
testing costs maybe inc. Lloyds (and believe me when I say Lloyds can never be called 'budget')
marketing cost (this is a very large number on some anchors)
Labelling costs
transport costs of everything
Government compliance costs
and that's just the country they are made in.

Then packing and export costs (very large if going to the US these days)
shipping and your country transport costs.
Import duty (in most countries)
Biosecurity and general security costs on imports
some more compliance costs
local marketing and stocking costs

and they are on the shelf ready for you to buy.

All of those costs long before anyone even tries to make a $.

Sure I do agree there is a couple of common anchors who could have a few 'ticket-clippers' taken out of the loop but you'll find most anchors are not as cheap to make commercially as many seem to think. Knocking one up in the backyard does tend to hide a lot of the costs business's have.

The Supreme has both a sliding rockslot and a separate fixed point. Your choice as which to use when and if required. The slot has has more than a few anchors I know of, yes mostly all at the small fishing fizz boat size end.

While I also do tend to think 99% of people don't give a rats botty as to the Supremes Lloyds given SHHP tag, at least it does tell a punter that they are made to a ' performance/quality standard' over seen by a 3rd party. Knowing a bit of the Lloyds process it is long, very very indepth and costs big. It is also an ongoing quality control thing not just a one off.

Manson and Rocna did have a bit of biffo here about the steel each uses and then found out both are pretty much the same thing i.e. good strong stuff. I don't know what steel the chinese use for the Delta but I've seen a few 'torn' apart and would say either the Rocna or Supreme would be stronger when talking destruction loads.

Don't get too excited what manufacturer says about another, it's all marketing. In one of the boating mags I read over Xmas there were 3 adverts for differing anchors. ALL adverts said their anchor was the highest holding and most powerful. As someone who sells many 1000's of anchors a year I couldn't believe more than 50% of each advert.

What is that Canadian flag thing all about? They always seem to be bloody huge. I'm guessing a combo of 3 things - they are proud of their country, trying hard not be be called Americans and too tight to buy a real mizzen sail

[Seeratlas]

Originally Posted by GMac

raw steel cost
welding machine
consumables
space to do it in
the persons time for doing it
design costs
testing costs maybe inc. Lloyds (and believe me when I say Lloyds can never be called 'budget')
marketing cost (this is a very large number on some anchors)
Labelling costs
transport costs of everything
Government compliance costs
and that's just the country they are made in.

Then packing and export costs (very large if going to the US these days)
shipping and your country transport costs.
Import duty (in most countries)
Biosecurity and general security costs on imports
some more compliance costs
local marketing and stocking costs

and they are on the shelf ready for you to buy.

All of those costs long before anyone even tries to make a $.

Sure I do agree there is a couple of common anchors who could have a few 'ticket-clippers' taken out of the loop but you'll find most anchors are not as cheap to make commercially as many seem to think. Knocking one up in the backyard does tend to hide a lot of the costs business's have.

The Supreme has both a sliding rockslot and a separate fixed point. Your choice as which to use when and if required. The slot has has more than a few anchors I know of, yes mostly all at the small fishing fizz boat size end.

While I also do tend to think 99% of people don't give a rats botty as to the Supremes Lloyds given SHHP tag, at least it does tell a punter that they are made to a ' performance/quality standard' over seen by a 3rd party. Knowing a bit of the Lloyds process it is long, very very indepth and costs big. It is also an ongoing quality control thing not just a one off.

Manson and Rocna did have a bit of biffo here about the steel each uses and then found out both are pretty much the same thing i.e. good strong stuff. I don't know what steel the chinese use for the Delta but I've seen a few 'torn' apart and would say either the Rocna or Supreme would be stronger when talking destruction loads.

Don't get too excited what manufacturer says about another, it's all marketing. In one of the boating mags I read over Xmas there were 3 adverts for differing anchors. ALL adverts said their anchor was the highest holding and most powerful. As someone who sells many 1000's of anchors a year I couldn't believe more than 50% of each advert.

What is that Canadian flag thing all about? They always seem to be bloody huge. I'm guessing a combo of 3 things - they are proud of their country, trying hard not be be called Americans and too tight to buy a real mizzen sail

All you say is undoubtedly true, but is marketing really that big of cost? Always seemed to me that the cruising fraternity is pretty much a word of mouth type group. We want to know what someone HAS that actually works, not what someone is saying works. I may end up proving myself wrong, but to look at these things, they sure look 'low tech' simple to me.
I'll just have to wait and see

Other half of my family is Canadian... but I gotta tell you...way back first time I had my boy on the boat up there, coming into Vancouver, he saw his first ensign Mizzen. he was maybe 5...looked up, pointed and asked..

"Daddy, is that a fig leaf? "

I nearly fell out of the boat lol. The relatives weren't quite so entertained hehehe

seer

seer

[OldYachtie]

If I could have only one store-bought anchor, it would be a Rocna, and that's how I voted. It looks like the best general purpose design to me, and it comes in bigger sizes than the Manson. However, I don't intend to buy a Rocna. I just don't think they are worth 2 1/2 times as much as a Delta.

I will buy a Delta 88, a Fortress FX-125 and a 150# "rock pick" aka "halibut hook" Admiralty pattern, Herreshoff, or Luke anchor. The Delta as a bower anchor for typical mud/sand anchoring, the Fortress for thin mud, and the rock pick for anchoring in rock, coral, or very deep water.

I will use 3/8" H4 all chain, and a swivel and shackles matched by strength-for a 65' catamaran. Line will be 1" 3-lay nylon, used for putting out 2nd and 3rd anchors only, with a Maxwell 24 volt 2500 Liberty windlasss. The all chain rode will have a 1" nylon bridle, long enough to extend about 15' forward of the bows, attached with a chain hook at the chain end and 5" schedule 80 alloy sampson posts on the bows. The second and 3rd anchor rodes will have 1/2" HT 40 chain, say 20' each.

[Seeratlas]

Originally Posted by OldYachtie

If I could have only one store-bought anchor, it would be a Rocna, and that's how I voted. It looks like the best general purpose design to me, and it comes in bigger sizes than the Manson. However, I don't intend to buy a Rocna. I just don't think they are worth 2 1/2 times as much as a Delta.

I will buy a Delta 88, a Fortress FX-125 and a 150# "rock pick" aka "halibut hook" Admiralty pattern, Herreshoff, or Luke anchor. The Delta as a bower anchor for typical mud/sand anchoring, the Fortress for thin mud, and the rock pick for anchoring in rock, coral, or very deep water.

I will use 3/8" H4 all chain, and a swivel and shackles matched by strength-for a 65' catamaran. Line will be 1" 3-lay nylon, used for putting out 2nd and 3rd anchors only, with a Maxwell 24 volt 2500 Liberty windlasss. The all chain rode will have a 1" nylon bridle, long enough to extend about 15' forward of the bows, attached with a chain hook at the chain end and 5" schedule 80 alloy sampson posts on the bows. The second and 3rd anchor rodes will have 1/2" HT 40 chain, say 20' each.

Man, those are big anchors. Should hold a cat Don't know if they are still made, but used to be a windlass manufacturer called Lighthouse out in California. Some of the best engineered stainless work I've ever seen, even have a manual provision for kedging off pulling 10k or more. excellent, excellent kit. You might take a look.

regarding bridles, will 15' give you a small enough angle assuming your samson's are on each hull? What's the beam of this thing? *Generally speaking, * I might suggest that you follow the work by the Jordan Drogue developer who settled on something like 1 and 1/2 the beam being the minimum length recommended for the bridle. (my memory may be off but would be easy to find on the net).

seer

[Alan Wheeler]

How do prices compare between Rocna and the Manson Supreme?? I consider Rocna too expensive also.

[OldYachtie]

Hi, Seer-not 15' long, long enough to reach 15' forward of the boat, probably about 55' of line, as you suggest. The beam is 35' 6", but 7' less at the the sampson posts. The Liberty 2500 is vertical, and so can be used for raising sails, kedging, etc.

Steve Dashew likes Maxwell windlasses. He is quite the gear head. I met him in Pago Pago long, long ago. He has megabucks, and so never does anything the simple or cheap way, but if he likes something, it's good gear.

The Lighthouse is indeed a thing of beauty, but horizontal, and also just as spendy as its lovely construction would lead you to expect. BTW, I am a big admirer of Ted Brewer's designs. Was your boat one of his stock designs?



seer[/quote]

[MidLandOne]

Originally Posted by OldYachtie

I have been unable to discover any specifics of Lloyd's requirements for anchors.

This document will tell you exactly where to look for those requirements http://www.cdlive.lr.org/information...s/lranchor.pdf
I don't have a copy of their rules for the Classification of Ships that are referred to and you will find them pretty pricey if you decide to buy them . You may have a naval architect friend with a copy.

Smaller vessels than "ships" are usually built to Lloyds Special Service Craft if constructed to Lloyds. Now that has a section on anchors in it too but from memory only gives rules for the selection of anchors for such vessels, not the construction of the anchors themselves (but am working from memory there).

Generally the 5 main classification societies accept each others approvals.

I don't know, but suspect that Manson's main interest in Lloyd's approvals (all their anchors are Lloyds type approved) is that they build anchors for commercial vessels, superyachts, etc which are usually either in class, are built to class rules but don't enter class or are required to comply with the construction rules of the country they are domiciled in, in which case Lloyds are accepted everywhere (as are the other main classification societies being Germanischer Lloyd, Det Norske Veritas, American Bureau of Shipping and Bureau Veritas).

[OldYachtie]

No specifics there, I fear, and it doesn't seem meant, as you say, for ordinary yachtsmen-ie. those using anchors under 75 kilos. I always use anchors that weigh less than my wife. And, oh dear, dwelling on the difference between mass and weight. That would be important to those planning on anchoring on the moon.

[quote=MidLandOne;124097]This document will tell you exactly where to look for those requirements http://www.cdlive.lr.org/information...s/lranchor.pdf

[MidLandOne]

Originally Posted by OldYachtie

No specifics there, I fear, and it doesn't seem meant, as you say, for ordinary yachtsmen-ie. those using anchors under 75 kilos.

No you have misread it - the document I linked to does not give the specifics themselves, but as I said it tells you where to find them. In Section 1.1.1 of it, it tells you that they are in Classification of Ships, Part 2, Chapter 10.

I also referred you to Lloyds Rules for Special Service Craft which are used for the construction of small vessels (theoretically over 24m or so, but in the face of the lack of any other rule they are used for vessels smaller than that too).

The mention of 75 Kilos refers only to the content of the lists of approved anchors that are in the rest of the document I linked to (the pdf linked to only includes part 1 of a bigger document) and just says that anchors under 75kg have not been included in those lists - I assume because the list would be too lengthy should they have included smaller anchors. It does not say that anchors under 75kg are not type approved.

I am not saying that the documents are easy to source and have already said they are expensive, but you first stated that you had been "unable to discover any specifics of Lloyds requirements for anchors". I have just pointed you in the direction of the specifics you claimed to have been looking for.

[seafox]

Originally Posted by Alan Wheeler

How do prices compare between Rocna and the Manson Supreme?? I consider Rocna too expensive also.

My Manson CQR has never dragged. I anchor 80% of the time in sand, rock or mud from 6m to 25m and have experienced winds from 5knot to 75 knots.

I have looked into the Rocna and unless I can talk Alan into building me one for a fair price (to him) I reckon I am better to stay with the plough and spend my money on extra chain.

Too much ******** & hype attached to the Rocna. Bring it on the Chinese I say.

[jdoe71]

Too much ******** and hype attached to this thread when it starts getting dragged into making shitty jokes about a nationality or its flag. What the hell are you guys thinking? You wouldn't find this offensive if I made jokes about your flag or your national pride? How does a comment about bending a girl over and doing the deed belong on a site like this? You sound like a bunch of drunks in a shitty bar somewhere.

Canadians don't mind a little jab here and there, but this has gone beyond the bounds of civility. I'm surprised the moderators haven't cut this crap off.

[Alan Wheeler]

dragged into making shitty jokes about a nationality or its flag.

comment about bending a girl over and doing the deed

Jdoe71, I take those things seriously. Could you please direct me to those comments and I will deal with them. Thank-you.
Oh and the reason why we haven't dealt with this is because as volunteers and the fact we also have a life outside of the board, we don't always read every single post. I have only just stepped into this discussion myself. But I will follow it and I won't tolerate any mud thrown by anyone