Open Source Anchor Project

[Invictus69]

Firstly, my compliments to the idea, the enthusiasm and thought put into this.
I have to say that I was not aware that various types of anchors have been actually patented. It is sad to see few pieces of metal welded together claimed as intellectual property. I am not disputing the time/expertise/effort put into it but that is why we have the free market, right? And then the question is where this ends and who decides which idea is 'patentable' or not. More jobs for lawyers and bureaucrats.

And that explains why we are having this conversation and nevertheless I think there are merits in Delancey's idea. However, if the conversation dilutes into a general debate about anchors, there is an increased execution risk.

Cheers!

[bluemoose]

Originally Posted by Invictus69

Firstly, my compliments to the idea, the enthusiasm and thought put into this.
I have to say that I was not aware that various types of anchors have been actually patented. It is sad to see few pieces of metal welded together claimed as intellectual property. I am not disputing the time/expertise/effort put into it but that is why we have the free market, right? And then the question is where this ends and who decides which idea is 'patentable' or not. More jobs for lawyers and bureaucrats.

And that explains why we are having this conversation and nevertheless I think there are merits in Delancey's idea. However, if the conversation dilutes into a general debate about anchors, there is an increased execution risk.

Cheers!

Not liking the patent system of protecting "better ideas" and then extolling the free market system. Well, that's like saying you really like sailing, except for the sheets and halyards. Lets say I come up with a new anchor idea (and in fact, I have), and I think that everyone from Alaska to Zimbabwe is going to want one, the IP protection that a patent provides, and the ability to use that IP to sell my idea to one of the big manufacturers is really all that stands between me making money or not. No one is going to send a lawyer to knock on your door if you make a few anchors that infringe. It's just not worth the effort. So I think this project is a fine idea as long as you don't violate IP. So draw up a CAD model and use the 3D printer down the street (can you cast from a 3D printer model?) and let us know how it goes.

[Invictus69]

Originally Posted by bluemoose

Not liking the patent system of protecting "better ideas" and then extolling the free market system. Well, that's like saying you really like sailing, except for the sheets and halyards.

I respectfully disagree with this comparison. My comment/question was really about where is the line after which the whole IP/patent thing becomes detrimental to the free market concept and innovation and who decides where is that line, because a number of the existing patents (not all) can be questioned about their intellectual origin and the fact that IP/patents has become an industry on its own I am not sure it serves the initially intended purpose.
In other words, Delancey would probably be few steps ahead in the process if he had not to worry about IP issues for a relatively basic and simple item.

Cheers!

[JonJo]

The Rocna fluke, made in China, is cast - that's how they get the word Rocna embossed on the upturn of the heel. They do it because its 'better'. My understanding cheaper, might be easier to control - and it gets the word Rocna emblazoned in large letters - great marketing tool.

On alloy anchors - you do not need to extrude, it might be better - but in a chandler not far from you is a welded alloy anchor.

I'm a bit concerned that you were so quickly dismissive of anything that did not fit your ideas.

It was meant to be 'open' and you immediately discounted, alloy, casting, sharp points and engineered (tapered) shanks.

Jonathan

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by JonJo

The Rocna fluke, made in China, is cast - that's how they get the word Rocna embossed on the upturn of the heel. They do it because its 'better'. My understanding cheaper, might be easier to control - and it gets the word Rocna emblazoned in large letters - great marketing tool.

On alloy anchors - you do not need to extrude, it might be better - but in a chandler not far from you is a welded alloy anchor.

I'm a bit concerned that you were so quickly dismissive of anything that did not fit your ideas.

It was meant to be 'open' and you immediately discounted, alloy, casting, sharp points and engineered (tapered) shanks.

Jonathan

"The intent of the OSAP is to create and distribute the design specifications for a generic new-generation anchor suitable for fabrication from readily available materials and using fabrication methods commonly accessible through-out the world."

Aluminum fabrication requires inert gas welding or brazing and casting is capital intensive. I don't think either approach could be considered readily available or commonly accessible.

You're making a supposition when you say I discounted a sharp point or a tapered shank. I said no such thing.

This ins't about designing the best or most ideal anchor, I'll leave that to the pros. This is about being pragmatic and designing a functional anchor accessible to anyone.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by bluemoose

Not liking the patent system of protecting "better ideas" and then extolling the free market system. Well, that's like saying you really like sailing, except for the sheets and halyards. Lets say I come up with a new anchor idea (and in fact, I have), and I think that everyone from Alaska to Zimbabwe is going to want one, the IP protection that a patent provides, and the ability to use that IP to sell my idea to one of the big manufacturers is really all that stands between me making money or not. No one is going to send a lawyer to knock on your door if you make a few anchors that infringe. It's just not worth the effort. So I think this project is a fine idea as long as you don't violate IP. So draw up a CAD model and use the 3D printer down the street (can you cast from a 3D printer model?) and let us know how it goes.

Yes you can directly cast plastic, it's very environmentally unfriendly because you invest the part and then burn the plastic out in a kiln. I turned my back on a project once because the intent was to do a bunch of bronze casting in Mexico by burning out polystyrene patterns.

You can 3D print metal, read about it here
Direct metal laser sintering - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Direct Metal Laser Sintering (DMLS) Overview - YouTube

[nimblemotors]

Originally Posted by Delancey

You have identified the route I would take if my goal was to make an anchor myself. However, in doing so I would potentially be committing piracy. One my stated objects for the project was to disincentivize piracy by making plans for a successful anchor design available to everyone.

That is not piracy. It would be piracy if you made and sold them.
And even then it is not piracy until it has been ruled to be in court,
as a patent means nothing until tested in court.

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by nimblemotors

That is not piracy. It would be piracy if you made and sold them.
And even then it is not piracy until it has been ruled to be in court,
as a patent means nothing until tested in court.

By your logic murder is only a crime if you get caught?

If it's protected and you use it, you're stealing.

FBI — Intellectual Property Theft
Copyright infringement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Patent infringement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[marujo.sortudo]

We'll, here's a crazy thought... What about an anchor that uses wood's buoyancy to orient the anchor. Traditional Chinese anchors did this, and a more modern anchor that was a bit of a marketing flop albeit with good and bad results in anchor tests used a similar concept. Look up the Hydrobubble if you're not familiar with it. Some pieces of wood lashed or bolted in the right location could remove the need for a roll bar, perhaps? Similar in concept to the lead weight and hollow shank of the Spade, and very easy and cheap to fabricate anywhere (if it works

[pbiJim]

Originally Posted by Delancey

Additionally, I have access to and can program a CNC machine to produce full size mock-ups in MDF or plywood to prove the self-righting geometry and center of gravity before anything is produced in steel.

Speaking from experience... if you want to test the self-righting properties of an anchor, you will need to make your prototype out of the same material that use for the finished product & you will need to do the testing in water. Buoyancy & balance mean a lot here.

[pbiJim]

Originally Posted by Delancey

Aluminum fabrication requires inert gas welding or brazing and casting is capital intensive. I don't think either approach could be considered readily available or commonly accessible.

TIG machines are becoming more available these days. MIG machines are now almost ubiquitous in most developed areas. A spool gun on a MIG will allow you to weld aluminum. You need to dial it in just right, but it can be done. You can also get aluminum rods for a stick welder. You need to preheat the area with a torch before you strike an arc & the material needs to be very clean, but that too works. You can also consider a bolt together design. I notice that many of the aluminum boat trailers I see these days have bolted together frames rather than welded frames.

[pbiJim]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

And continuing to use your tested anchor after a 5000 lbs test, may not be a good idea. In reality you need to make two. ( or more) .

Why?

Rifle barrels are proof tested at a multiple of their rated pressure & then put into service. Chain slings used for overhead lifting are stress tested at a multiple of their rated work load before being certified & allowed into service. Is there a reason why this would be different?

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by marujo.sortudo

We'll, here's a crazy thought... What about an anchor that uses wood's buoyancy to orient the anchor. Traditional Chinese anchors did this, and a more modern anchor that was a bit of a marketing flop albeit with good and bad results in anchor tests used a similar concept. Look up the Hydrobubble if you're not familiar with it. Some pieces of wood lashed or bolted in the right location could remove the need for a roll bar, perhaps? Similar in concept to the lead weight and hollow shank of the Spade, and very easy and cheap to fabricate anywhere (if it works

You sir are awarded a gold star for making a positive contribution! Unfortunately someone beat you to it. Outstanding!

Innovative HydroBubble anchor updates one of man's earliest inventions

[nimblemotors]

murder = make an anchor?

government patent = protection?

Someones panties are bunched up.

Originally Posted by Delancey

By your logic murder is only a crime if you get caught?

If it's protected and you use it, you're stealing.

FBI — Intellectual Property Theft
Copyright infringement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Patent infringement - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Delancey]

Originally Posted by pbiJim

TIG machines are becoming more available these days. MIG machines are now almost ubiquitous in most developed areas. A spool gun on a MIG will allow you to weld aluminum. You need to dial it in just right, but it can be done. You can also get aluminum rods for a stick welder. You need to preheat the area with a torch before you strike an arc & the material needs to be very clean, but that too works. You can also consider a bolt together design. I notice that many of the aluminum boat trailers I see these days have bolted together frames rather than welded frames.

Look, I totally agree that MIG and TIG are more common than they used to be and yes you can stick weld both aluminum and stainless.

I wouldn't agree with any assertion that either material or the resources and skills necessary to work with them were commonly available, or at least as commonly available as mild steel, therefore they don't make sense to me as the material of choice for the OSA.

Do the groundwork design in mild steel, scale it out to other materials later. Scooby can make his out of stainless and nimblemotors can make his out of carbon fiber honeycomb panels.

I think your bolt-together idea is fantastic! Seriously worth looking at. I would take it a step further and suggest rivets as an alternate fastening.

This type of construction was suitable for building the Empire State Building and it's still standing all these years. People who feel uncomfortable with the Mantus because of the bolt together assembly make me laugh.

Of course it means a second material besides the plate as well as the addition of the fasteners, but it eliminates welding. It is also fairly easy to deform angle as would be required to make the connection between the shank and the halves of the fluke, be they convex or concave.

BTW, a little investigation and what do you know? From the Pitcairn Island tourism website-

"Though Fuel may not be available and water can be very scarce in the summer months, the necessary skills of the islanders, mean that many boat repairs can be undertaken, including some welding of aluminum and stainless steel. The going rate is usually around US $12.00 per hour and for that you get a lot of effort."

Sail to Pitcairn | Pitcairn Islands Tourism