Photos of Anchors Setting

[BigBeakie]

Ann,

Please understand, I am not knocking Noelex per se. I think the effort he has gone to, with the diving skills and photography of the mermaid, are exemplary. I have said in the past that from my personal experience and observations underwater, he is wrong about the performance of the Sarca and Excel, and I'll say it again. Only this time folks can look at Panope's videos to see for themselves. Oh, and by the way, the anchor that stopped the boat dead at Wooli on incredibly short scope was a Super Sarca.

But Noelex is the one who started the criticism of "convex shape" anchors not holding, but dragging, like a plow, and then calling them plow anchors.

So THAT is why some think it is still, despite you not seeing the term plow as perjorative, a put down.

And then Rex from Anchor Right came on and explained how it didn't plow but was designed to dig in and bury itself and that is how it achieved it's high holding power, and that holding power was TESTED by third party agency. And all he got was ridicule and denigration of his product. And yes, he is not a gifted writer and yes he is, I mean was, brutally honest in his posts and yes he reacted pretty strongly in indignation. For which he was banned from CF.

It is CF's loss that he is not here, because what he doesn't know about anchoring and anchor design principles isn't worth knowing. Just IMHO.

[Cu Mor Glas]

I will say, having operated actual plows for their intended purpose that it is hard to look at a CQR or a Delta and see them as anything but a smallish single bottom plow or a ditcher. Around here they competitively plow behind draft horses. And the 12 year old Amish boys will drag a plow the size and shape of a 45lb CQR behind a single horse straight as an arrow for a hundred feet in just a few minutes... And m perfectly OK with calling them plow anchors. The the sarca is something different than them is only seen upon close examination and I think it will be hard for most people who already have a bad taste in their mouth from plows dragging to get past that. Let's be nice on all sides of this.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Is there an agenda running here on this forum? Sure, Mantus is a sponsor of the forum and good on them for supporting CF, but I would guess most of us come here to get opinions and straight talk.

Originally Posted by BigBeakie

Please understand, I am not knocking Noelex per se

I have put a lot of effort into maintaining independence.

I have paid for all my anchors. I have never received even a free beer from an anchor manufacturer. With camera gear etc this is not a cheap undertaking. Why would any advertising on Cruisers Forum influence my posts? Moderators are just members who have volunteered their time to help the forum run more smoothly.

You are also ignoring the fact that Groundtackle (who as I understand it only sells Anchor Right products) is a sponsoring vendor. Also note the photographs of the bent Mantus shank or the recent less than brilliant performance of a Fortress anchor. All these manufacturers are also sponsoring vendors on CF.

What I see is what is posted on Cruisers Forum. I totally reject that any anchor manufacturer gets preferential treatment.

My opinion regarding anchors is based on a lifetime interest of watching their performance underwater, talking to other cruising sailors, looking at the design features of particular models and looking at anchor test results. You might not agree with my opinions, but to suggest they are biased is insulting and without foundation.

The category of "plow (or plough) anchor" was not a term that was devised by me, as has been suggested. It goes back many decades. These days we have "fixed plow anchors" and "articulated plow anchors". As for placing the Excel in this former category, surely this makes sense to the even the most ardent fan?

Most anchor manufacturers have no problem with classification. Plastimo, for example, clearly proclaim in their advertising literature that the Kobra anchor is a "plough anchor". It is the accepted name.

We need collective nouns when discussing anchor types. Referring to anchors using terms such as "concave roll bar anchors", and "fixed plow anchors" is often helpful. To suggest otherwise is like trying to discuss sailboats without using terms such as "catamaran" or "monohull". When using these terms no one is suggesting that all catamarans are indentical, but they do share some common characteristics that make them different to monohulls. The same is true of anchors.

Anyway, I have no interest in anchor threads that degenerate into personal attacks. I generally ignore posts like this. I think we should be concentrating on the anchors themselves.

[kas_1611]

Noelex I have to heartily agree with you that the personal stuff is of no interest and I am only here for the anchors (well and the mermaids too )

I joined the thread to learn more about how anchors worked down there under the gloom while trying to decide what to do about my anchor. Your photos and descriptions helped me understand a lot more about anchoring and in turn lead me to the decision to upgrade my anchor.

Since then I have joined in the sharing of knowledge by adding photos of my Vulcan performing in our real world experiences. Even the occasion it set (and held) upside down due to the shackle issue. I too have swum over and duck dived down to other types of anchor to add their setting performance to the mix.

I have done this for the same reason you do, to share knowledge. I do it for no material gain whatsoever and would not take any from a supplier or manufacturer if they asked as I value independent research as a scientist.

I appreciate the feedback and information from the likes of Mantus and Fortress in the thread as it is of importance and I hope they too learn from our collective, real world, experiences. Testing is one thing, actual use in anger can be a different kettle of fish completely.

Please don't stop what you are doing as the majority of us here love your work and value your knowledge and experience of anchoring and anchors.

Thanks

Keiron

[Fortress]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Noelex I have to heartily agree with you that the personal stuff is of no interest and I am only here for the anchors (well and the mermaids too )

I joined the thread to learn more about how anchors worked down there under the gloom while trying to decide what to do about my anchor. Your photos and descriptions helped me understand a lot more about anchoring and in turn lead me to the decision to upgrade my anchor.

Since then I have joined in the sharing of knowledge by adding photos of my Vulcan performing in our real world experiences. Even the occasion it set (and held) upside down due to the shackle issue. I too have swum over and duck dived down to other types of anchor to add their setting performance to the mix.

I have done this for the same reason you do, to share knowledge. I do it for no material gain whatsoever and would not take any from a supplier or manufacturer if they asked as I value independent research as a scientist.

I appreciate the feedback and information from the likes of Mantus and Fortress in the thread as it is of importance and I hope they too learn from our collective, real world, experiences. Testing is one thing, actual use in anger can be a different kettle of fish completely.

Please don't stop what you are doing as the majority of us here love your work and value your knowledge and experience of anchoring and anchors.

Thanks

Keiron

Keiron,

I appreciate your insights and of course we all learn from the dialogue and exchange of information.

Regarding the personal attacks, as I am sure you can understand, there is a different side of the story from an anchor manufacturer's perspective.

Along with Anchor Right (makers of the Excel and Sarca), we also work very hard to insure that we manufacture a high quality, high performance product. I am confident that the same holds true with the other brands, particularly those who have gone through the expensive process of achieving certifications through one or more classification society (ABS, DNV GL, Lloyd's, etc).

So when a forum poster who has minimal, if any, actual firsthand experience with our product makes very disparaging statements, then quite naturally we are going to respond, and unfortunately exchanges from that can result in personal attacks, which of course we all want to avoid.

I can offer specifics, but suffice to say that I believe the most helpful opinions are offered by those who have extensive experience with at least one anchor model, or hopefully even more, of a product line.

Safe anchoring,
Brian

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

Noelex I have to heartily agree with you that the personal stuff is of no interest and I am only here for the anchors (well and the mermaids too )

I joined the thread to learn more about how anchors worked down there under the gloom while trying to decide what to do about my anchor. Your photos and descriptions helped me understand a lot more about anchoring and in turn lead me to the decision to upgrade my anchor.

Since then I have joined in the sharing of knowledge by adding photos of my Vulcan performing in our real world experiences. Even the occasion it set (and held) upside down due to the shackle issue. I too have swum over and duck dived down to other types of anchor to add their setting performance to the mix.

I have done this for the same reason you do, to share knowledge. I do it for no material gain whatsoever and would not take any from a supplier or manufacturer if they asked as I value independent research as a scientist.

I appreciate the feedback and information from the likes of Mantus and Fortress in the thread as it is of importance and I hope they too learn from our collective, real world, experiences. Testing is one thing, actual use in anger can be a different kettle of fish completely.

Please don't stop what you are doing as the majority of us here love your work and value your knowledge and experience of anchoring and anchors.

Thanks

Keiron

Thanks Keiron.

I have appreciated your photos of the Vulcan very much too. Anchor photos (as well as Panope's great videos) I think are a useful means of anchor evaluation. The information is objective, cannot be manipulated and is hard to dispute. I would encourage everyone to look at images and videos and make up their own mind.

I have the impression that anchor manufacturers don't like the photos/videos, especially when their model does poorly. It is perhaps a shock after the sugar coated reviews that seem to be infesting the yachting magazines. Sadly, I have received threats of legal action in the past.

Anyway, I hope we can concentrate on anchors in this thread, so if anyone has any photos please post them.

[malbert73]

It's funny- I get that Fortress wants to defend use of their anchor in all conditions. But whether valid or not- the perception that the fortress is the ideal secondary/ storm anchor /kedge probably has led to more widespread purchase than if it was competing in the more crowded bower/primary anchor market. It seems every cruiser I know (including myself) carries a fortress as a secondary. But bowers are split between Bruce, mantus, Rocna, Manson, and even --gasp-- delta and cqr....


Sent from my iPhone using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by malbert73

It's funny- I get that Fortress wants to defend use of their anchor in all conditions. But whether valid or not- the perception that the fortress is the ideal secondary/ storm anchor /kedge probably has led to more widespread purchase than if it was competing in the more crowded bower/primary anchor market. It seems every cruiser I know (including myself) carries a fortress as a secondary. But bowers are split between Bruce, mantus, Rocna, Manson, and even --gasp-- delta and cqr....

Well Said. I like the way you think
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[cfarrar]

Rocna 33 Kg, depth 2.5M, typical Bahamian sand (Crooked Island), winds 20G25kts:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab4bEQifGUQ

[noelex 77]

Thanks Cfarrar. That is a nicely buried Rocna and just the thing to get the thread back on track .

[JPA Cate]

Nice one, cfarrar, beaut pic!

Thanks for sharing.

Ann

[SVNeko]

There's a pic on one of the FB sailing sites of a severely bent Mantus shaft. I can't find it now for some reason. Poster said Mantus stepped right up and sent them a new one. But would like to know how it bent in the first place.

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

There's a pic on one of the FB sailing sites of a severely bent Mantus shaft. I can't find it now for some reason. Poster said Mantus stepped right up and sent them a new one. But would like to know how it bent in the first place.

Shanks do bend from time to time on anchors.

In a few cases it because it is wedged in rock or coral and a wind shift pulls the shank hard in another direction with the fluke stuck where it was.

Fortress, Mantus and Spade anchors are good in the respect that you can just replace the shank without much effort.

Most other anchors would need the whole anchor replaced.
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[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

There's a pic on one of the FB sailing sites of a severely bent Mantus shaft. I can't find it now for some reason. Poster said Mantus stepped right up and sent them a new one. But would like to know how it bent in the first place.

If you look back in this thread you will see lots of photos of my bent Mantus shank.

This was the original mild steel shank. Mantus have changed the specifications to a stronger high test steel shank shortly after I purchased the anchor.

I have not managed to bend the new high steel shank and the anchor has not been treated gently, although it is also oversized, which I think helps strength. However, while the risk is very small, any anchor can be bent with the right provocation. Off the top of head I cannot think of a single reasonably popular anchor where there has not been at least one reliable user report where the anchor has bent. Perhaps the only exception (I can think of) is the original Bruce which is no longer made.

Unfortunately, there is a trade off with most anchor designs between shank weight and performance. It is easy to build a very strong anchor, but the performance will drop. Personally I want an anchor design where high performance is a priority. It should also be very unlikely, but not impossible to bend. Even better if the manufacturer backs the anchor with a good warranty that covers bending and hopefully a system in place where the transport costs are reasonable or free. Some manufacturers have a warranty that is next to useless, as it does not include bending. Others make you return the bent anchor, sometime to the original manufacturer, and pay for delivery of the new model. The shipping costs in some cases can be a very significant portion of simply buying a new anchor.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

....I object to people denigrating others on CF, and perhaps I reacted with hyper-sensitivity to Factor's post. I felt that he was impugning noelex, and we do have a "be nice" rule here.

At the risk of torturing the language, I wasn't being not nice. I acknowledged the work Noelex had chosen to undertake. I simply said that I did not understand why he would strongly denigrate an anchor he hadn't used or seen used simply based his perception of what it looked like.

And that in the face of extensive real world experience by a number of people. And that in the face of real world testing by independent testing companies. Thats all, just could not understand why anyone would do that. On the issue of being nice I did find it a little annoying that you accused me of pushing an agenda on "anchors I sell". I have never sold any anchor of any type to or for anyone. I do not understand why you would accuse me of that?