Photos of Anchors Setting

[estarzinger]

Originally Posted by NornaBiron

Wow, you were unlucky, we've only been hit twice by dragging boats in six and a half years of full time cruising.

We have only been hit once in all our cruising (in mexico).

We were not on board, but when we came back found wood splinters and chunks all along the port decks, with not a scratch on Hawk

The other skipper came over when he saw us back on board and apologized.

[SV Lift]

I've only been hit once, by a super pricey center console in the Bahamas. The boat had no rode deployed, anchor still in the locker, no lines out, no key. A real head scratcher.

Eventually figured out it had been tied to a dock with shiny new dock lines, and shiny new polished stainless cleats. No friction and away it went.

[NornaBiron]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

Norna B,

Did the skipper offer to repair the damage his vessel did to yours? He should be feeling EXTREMELY grateful to you.

It seems like you did everything right, and good on your Spade for holding both of you, that's always a worry.

We were willing to go through our insurance but his was void (he hadn't checked out of Turkey or into Greece) so he couldn't go down that route. When we said that in that case we would need a police report for our insurers he handed over some cash to cover the replacement parts - my merman can do the installation himself.

[chasfgr]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Don't anchor downwind of demented sailors

The obvious solution was to ditch our anchor rode, but my wife and eye were busy running around trying to get fenders to whatever spot he was aiming for.

Eventually the other skipper saw sense (maybe our shouting helped) and we just rafted the boats up together and untangled the anchor chain, by slowly pulling up his anchor. The dragging stopped as soon as he stopped his full throttle manoeuvres.

He did not speak any English so I never got his story. There was no damage to our boat other than a tiny scratch and only a little damage to his where he hit our bow roller with the initial contact.

I'd go far as to suggest avoiding anchoring downwind of any sailors - bad enough having my own drag with which to contend than with another's. I have to say that Noelex appears to hjave been unlucky - the last bout of people dragging onto me was around Scillonia, usually empty French boats. All my recent bad experiences recently have been in harbours. Karlovastasi and here in Thassos and, in every case no-one to blame but myself.
One of the most instructive part of this chain is the demonstration of how ineffectual the anchoring technique of about 50% of boaters appears to be.

[NornaBiron]

Originally Posted by chasfgr

One of the most instructive part of this chain is the demonstration of how ineffectual the anchoring technique of about 50% of boaters appears to be.

From what we've seen this year poor anchoring technique has been much closer to 80%. However, we have been in charter country, not so many private boats.

[NornaBiron]

First is an all white Bugel, that has good scope but the owner did not bother to set it. The second is another Bugel that seems to have a list. The third, and winner of the day, is a perfectly set Delta. I haven't included our Spade in the competition as it is becoming camera shy, I think it's in Australia

[monte]

Originally Posted by NornaBiron

The yacht was a Jeaneau 46 with a 25kg Delta and 50m of 10mm chain. He set in 17m of water with short bursts of full power astern, but when the wind shifted 180' he swung into 25m of water thus causing him to drag.

That statement seems a big off..swinging into deeper water doesn't change the scope..but maybe that's not what you meant to say

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by monte

That statement seems a big off..swinging into deeper water doesn't change the scope..but maybe that's not what you meant to say

Swinging into deeper water changed the anchor orientation on the slopping seabed. Before the swing the anchor was pulled up-hill, and held, despite being undersized. After the swing the anchor was pulled down-hill and dragged, especially being undersized

Read between verses for You

Cheers,

Tomasz

[NornaBiron]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Swinging into deeper water changed the anchor orientation on the slopping seabed. Before the swing the anchor was pulled up-hill, and held, despite being undersized. After the swing the anchor was pulled down-hill and dragged, especially being undersized

Read between verses for You

Cheers,

Tomasz

Exactly Tomasz, thanks

[monte]

The difference in elevation is 8m, difference in distance 100m, less than 10:1. Hardly a hill ! And hardly a reason for an anchor to drag. Understandably as it gets deeper it will worsen and not increase scope, but definitely not a valid reason for dragging, just sayin

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by monte

The difference in elevation is 8m, difference in distance 100m, less than 10:1. Hardly a hill ! And hardly a reason for an anchor to drag. Understandably as it gets deeper it will worsen and not increase scope, but definitely not a valid reason for dragging, just sayin

Seabed angle rarely is even
Main reason for dragging was of course pathetically undersized 25 kg Delta on 46 ft, medium displacement boat

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Main reason for dragging was of course pathetically undersized 25 kg Delta on 46 ft, medium displacement boat

According to the size tables (yes I know most of us don't believe them) a 25kg Delta is already oversized for a 46ft boat. The guide suggests a 20kg Delta for a 44 to 54ft boat. OK so the table is based on an average boat doing average anchoring in average conditions but that's what the majority of average sailors do.

So the owner of this 46ft boat already had a larger anchor than the guide so to call it "pathetically" undersized is not constructive. How big a lump of metal do you suggest they should have on the front? Remembering that there are limits to the weight you can haul on a windlass.

Pathetically undersized would be a 12 or 16kg Delta on a 46ft boat.

Sorry but all this negativity about anchor sizes is beginning to detract from this thread. It's not the size but what you do with it that matters.

Keiron

[DoubleWhisky]

Originally Posted by kas_1611

According to the size tables (yes I know most of us don't believe them) a 25kg Delta is already oversized for a 46ft boat. The guide suggests a 20kg Delta for a 44 to 54ft boat. OK so the table is based on an average boat doing average anchoring in average conditions but that's what the majority of average sailors do.

So the owner of this 46ft boat already had a larger anchor than the guide so to call it "pathetically" undersized is not constructive. How big a lump of metal do you suggest they should have on the front? Remembering that there are limits to the weight you can haul on a windlass.

Pathetically undersized would be a 12 or 16kg Delta on a 46ft boat.

Sorry but all this negativity about anchor sizes is beginning to detract from this thread. It's not the size but what you do with it that matters.

Keiron

Rocna recommends its 33 kg anchor for this boat. Mantus advice is 38.6 kg (85 lb). Delta is rated as HHP, not SHHP, so should weight about 30% more than appropriate Rocna.
Wish You good luck with sticking to Delta sizing chart.

Cheers,

Tomasz

[kas_1611]

Originally Posted by DoubleWhisky

Rocna recommends its 33 kg anchor for this boat. Mantus advice is 38.6 kg (85 lb). Delta is rated as HHP, not SHHP, so should weight about 30% more than appropriate Rocna.
Wish You good luck with sticking to Delta sizing chart.

Cheers,

Tomasz

Tomasz,

I'm not arguing that there is a discrepancy between what a manufacturer claims and what we, as anchorholics, know. We have a 16kg Delta on our 40ft and Lewmar's table says this is suitable. For the most part it has been superb in my experience and the 2 times it has dragged we were in weed so I am not holding the size of anchor responsible for them, especially as we were hit with nearly 50kts on one occasion. I do feel that 16kg is a little too small for our boat and am planning to upgrade in the next year or 2.

As such I have been researching various anchors and you have to go with the data from the manufacturers when it comes to making your choice. For example, for my 40ft I have the choice of anything from 6.8kg - Fortress, 13kg - Knox, 16kg - Delta, 20kg - Rocna and 30kg from Mantus. Now all these are working anchors for normal conditions but there is a HUGE difference across the range. Obviously if we want to look at storm anchors then we step up a level or even 2.

As an anchorholic I am considering either a 25kg Rocna or a 18kg Knox, with the Knox currently the favoured choice as I won't need to replace my entire anchor windlass to install it, just the chain gypsy for a 10mm chain (plus it is British made ;-) ).

So in conclusion I hope these numbers show just how confusing it is for your average sailor to understand anchor sizes. And why it is disconsiderate to go on about 'pathetically undersized' anchors when an owner has a large anchor than the manufacturer recommends, even if we anchorholics don't agree necessarily.

Keiron

[chasfgr]

Originally Posted by monte

The difference in elevation is 8m, difference in distance 100m, less than 10:1. Hardly a hill ! And hardly a reason for an anchor to drag. Understandably as it gets deeper it will worsen and not increase scope, but definitely not a valid reason for dragging, just sayin

My experience, hardly infinite, is that anchors are far more likely to drag downhill than uphill.

Interesting that Noelex estimates that bad sets represent 80% of the failures - though "new-age" anchors appear more "idiot-proof" than older versions.
However all these photos are taken in very similar, sandy bottoms - widely prevalent in the E Med but less so in other cruising grounds - bottoms like mud, shingle and weed. The biggest bugbear for all anchoring is weed - I don't know how people cope with the giant kelp you find in the High latitudes.
I do thank Noelex and NornaBiron for their enormous data-input: high quality, objective evidence.