Poor little anchor

[BlackHeron]

I suppose if you don't have an engine then it is quite possible to have too big of an anchor to set. If it is so heavy that you don't even know if the anchor has fouled itself on its own chain then you don't know if it will set or just skiddle along on the bottom when the wind kicks up to 40 knots. At 10 knots of wind when you sailed in, anything on the end of that chain will hold you, even a ball of chain around a big honking anchor.

[Izikalvo]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

As an anchor manufacturer, if you start a thread about an opposition’s anchor that is bent, I think it is an important to clarify how the Viking warranty would apply in a similar situation.

The Viking warranty was not entirely clear from the website, but my understanding is if a Viking anchor is stuck under a rock and bent this would not be covered under the warranty (unless there was also a fundemental manufacturing defect).

Most marine goods have a similar warranty, but leading anchor brands have a much more extensive warranty that is more like an insurance policy. Typically they will replace the anchor with no questions no matter how the bend or damage occured. Some will do this at no or a very nominal charge for postage, others require the bent anchor to be returned, which adds to the expense.

The type and details of the warranty should be taken into account when anchor shopping.

Noelex did you see this on our warranty page?
"If you are not happy with our anchor for any reason at any time, you can send it back to us and you will be fully refunded.

Simple as that!!"
I think this says it all, also, with Viking you can replace only the shank if needed.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Izikalvo

Noelex did you see this on our warranty page?
"If you are not happy with our anchor for any reason at any time, you can send it back to us and you will be fully refunded.

Simple as that!!"
I think this says it all, also, with Viking you can replace only the shank if needed.

So can you confirm if an owner, for example, bends a shank because the anchor was caught under a rock then owner would need to pay for delivery back to the Ukraine, but then you will accept the bent anchor and issue a full refund?

As an alternative, if the owner wished, the bent shank would be replaced at no charge. Would the bent shank need to sent back to the Ukraine? Would a delivery charge apply for the new shank?

Could you please clarify how the warranty will work in practice and if the above interpretation is entirely correct? It would help members considering purchasing one of your anchors.

I started a thread many years ago comparing anchor warranty details:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-113472.html

I will add the Viking details once it becomes clear how this warranty will work in practice.

[Izikalvo]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

So can you confirm if an owner, for example, bends a shank because the anchor was caught under a rock then owner would need to pay for delivery back to the Ukraine, but then you will accept the bent anchor and issue a full refund?

As an alternative, if the owner wished, the bent shank would be replaced at no charge. Would the bent shank need to sent back to the Ukraine? Would a delivery charge apply for the new shank?

Could you please clarify how the warranty will work in practice and if the above interpretation is entirely correct? It would help members considering purchasing one of your anchors.

I started a thread many years ago comparing anchor warranty details:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...es-113472.html

I will add the Viking details once it becomes clear how this warranty will work in practice.

Here it is:
Damaged (not including galvanizing issues) shank or fluke will be replaced at no charge to the original buyer, shipping cost 2 ways, will be paid by the buyer.

In case the original buyer only! is not happy with his purchase (our anchor) at any given time, we will refund him or her with the amount paid not including shipping cost, the original buyer will have to ship back the anchor on his expense to one of our following locations: the factory in Ukrain, our shipping hub in Belgium or our headquarters in Israel.

We will ask for some photos and description of what happened for our r&d purposes and that is all.

All the above is valid as long as we live, so your help is needed to make it longer

[noelex 77]

OK, thanks for the clarification.

I will update the warranty thread so Cruising Forum members know exactly what is covered and what is involved making a warranty claim.

[a64pilot]

I’ve been thinking, yeah I know that’s dangerous.
I can’t imagine any condition that an anchor not caught in rocks or some other immovable condition could bend a shank.
In any normal substrate any force from any direction should cause the anchor to reposition well before the shank bends. If not, then many, many bent anchors will likely be reported, the run of bad Rocna’s for example.

That leads to the thought that if you have pinned the anchor so that it can’t move, that any anchor shank can be bent or broken, just takes enough force.

So final thought, is at least once a design has been “out there” for a few years and a few thousand in use, if there are very little to no reports of bent anchors, it’s an adequate anchor from a being bent perspective.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I’ve been thinking, yeah I know that’s dangerous.
I can’t imagine any condition that an anchor not caught in rocks or some other immovable condition could bend a shank.
In any normal substrate any force from any direction should cause the anchor to reposition well before the shank bends. If not, then many, many bent anchors will likely be reported, the run of bad Rocna’s for example.

That leads to the thought that if you have pinned the anchor so that it can’t move, that any anchor shank can be bent or broken, just takes enough force.

So final thought, is at least once a design has been “out there” for a few years and a few thousand in use, if there are very little to no reports of bent anchors, it’s an adequate anchor from a being bent perspective.

Well, I've bent two myself, and seen a number of bent anchor shanks on other boats. I don't think it's rare.


My cases were with the anchor buried very deeply in hard dense mud, stormy weather, big wind shift, boat suddenly blown in a different direction and snatched up against the chain from a different direction. Both happened in UK waters with no rocks.



If the anchor is deeply buried and firmly set, it might not shuffle around so easily in a wind shift, and meanwhile a lot of lateral force can be put on the anchor shank.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

So final thought, is at least once a design has been “out there” for a few years and a few thousand in use, if there are very little to no reports of bent anchors, it’s an adequate anchor from a being bent perspective.

I think that is by far the best indication that the shank and fluke are adequate (providing the manufacturer does not change the construction materials). The problem is that new designs have little track record so here a good warranty is especially important. The second issue is some manufacturers deliberately suppress any reports or photos of bent anchors, which creates a distorted perception.

From the examples I have heard about, the bending almost always occurs when retrieving the anchor. Either the anchor is stuck under a rock/debris or the anchor is very well buried and wave action by bouncing the bow up and down when the scope is close to 1:1 creates a very high force.

The good news is that while the anchor will be permanently damaged and need replacement, as it occurs during retrieval the event is very unlikely to cause any loss of holding or damage to the boat, providing a suitable replacement anchor is available to use subsequently. If the anchor warranty is one of the better ones, replacement should not be expensive. Consequently, I would rather err on the side of anchor performance rather than trying to build a bulletproof shank. If the anchor does not perform well and the boat drags and is damaged there is no warranty from the anchor manufacturer.

So the ideal shank is just strong enough so it will only bend under exceptional circumstances. Not quite the the same criteria as Ben Lexcen the late America’s Cup yacht designer who is reported to have said 'If it doesn't break it's too heavy”, but it is important to understand that any extra weight in the shank as in other areas of yacht design has a trade off in reducing performance.

One advantage of oversizing an anchor is that it also means bending is less likely. While a larger anchor will generate a higher maximum holding power negating the advantage somewhat, the maximum force that can be exerted by the boat to raise and therefore bend a stuck anchor is dependent on the characteristics of the vessel rather than the size of the anchor. So in many cases oversizing provides an extra margin of error if the anchor designer has erred on the weaker side of ideal.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

. . . Consequently, I would rather err on the side of anchor performance rather than trying to build a bulletproof shank. If the anchor does not perform well and the boat drags and is damaged there is no warranty from the anchor manufacturer.

So the ideal shank is just strong enough so it will only bend under exceptional circumstances. . . .

I don't think that a strong shank contradicts anchor performance if well designed. The only thing a strong shank contradicts is low cost of manufacture.

That anchor which has the strongest shank according to the Mantus study, that is, the Spade, with a shank about twice as strong as other new generation anchors, according to Mantus, is at the same time one of the best performing anchors, so there's your proof. This is the section of the Spade shank:


From: https://www.practical-sailor.com/sai...shank-strength

This cuts nicely into the seabed, so no compromise of performance.

Whether you need the strength of a shank like that or not, everyone will have to decide for himself. Having bent anchors before myself, it's something I, personally, care about. Others may have different priorities. YMMV.

I question, however, whether bent anchor shanks are so rare. Quoting the recent Practical Sailor article on the subject:

"Yet bent anchor shanks are hardly rare, especially among low budget varieties. We accept that sometimes an anchor gets wedged into a crevice where bending is unavoidable, but it seems increasingly more common that anchors are bending during what would be considered normal use. . .

Leisure anchors have become more efficient and have increased holding capacity. By definition, increased holding capacity means they can set more deeply and more securely than previous, older models. The fact they can become immovable has obvious advantages. A disadvantage is that if a deeply set anchor is loaded at 90 degrees to the direction of set, the fluke might not have time to turn and the shank must be able to withstand a load applied to its weaker section.

https://www.practical-sailor.com/blo...shank-strength

That corresponds to my observations. The cited articles are worth reading.

Originally Posted by noelex 77

. . but it is important to understand that any extra weight in the shank as in other areas of yacht design has a trade off in reducing performance.. . .

A stronger shank does not require extra weight. It requires extra cost. It's a tradeoff, but a different one from this.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

One advantage of oversizing an anchor is that it also means bending is less likely. While a larger anchor will generate a higher maximum holding power negating the advantage somewhat, the maximum force that can be exerted by the boat to raise and therefore bend a stuck anchor is dependent on the characteristics of the vessel rather than the size of the anchor. So in many cases oversizing provides an extra margin of error if the anchor designer has erred on the weaker side of ideal.

And an oversized anchor is harder to bury deeply, easier to retrieve, easier to re-position, as well as stronger to resist bending.

[a64pilot]

My take is that by the time the shank is cutting into the substrate, the anchor is well set, and when you look at the surface area of the fluke compared to the surface area of the shank, shank resistance to penetration just isn’t really all that significant, if it were I’d expect to see anchor manufacturers grinding a cut edge similar to a cutting tool, but you don’t see that very often.
I believe a built up shank is done to save weight more than to improve strength.

An anchor unless pinned by an immovable object, can’t become immovable, it just requires more force to move it, maybe more force that can be exerted, but it’s not immovable, just enough force hasn’t been exerted.

Where that matters, in my opinion is that if you can bend a shank when it’s in any kind of substrate, then the shank isn’t strong enough.
The manufacturer can make a shank stronger by merely upsizing it, but that may adversely affect the anchors balance and setting ability, or you can make it stronger by being built up from separate pieces, or you can specify “stronger” steel. Higher heat treat cost more, as does being built up.

You shouldn’t be able to bend an anchor by retrieval with a Windlass, the clutch shouldn’t be able to exert enough force, therefore it would seem that if they are being bent on retrieval, it’s by locking out the windlass and using the mass of the boat attempting to break out the anchor?

I have had to once of twice had to do that after a storm, locking the chain with the stopper and rocking the boat back and forth with the throttle to lever one out.
I really only had to do it with real force once, after a near miss from a hurricane and I was anchored in a bayou in dense clay like mud. Took a half hour or so, and I was beginning to think I was going to have to abandon it and pay to have it pulled.

So what I’m saying is that if you can bend an anchor shank, it’s not strong enough. You can’t specify material or design, but you can affect strength by size, which leads me to believe as long as we are talking about a quality product, if you can bend it, it’s not big enough.
The only variable you can control is sizing.

[a64pilot]

Built up sections when they bend, they fail, by fail I mean that almost all the strength is gone, think of a section of tubing as an example, it’s strong until it bends, once bent it has almost no strength.
A solid section retains a lot of its strength, it’s bent, but will still hold quite a lot of force.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Don C L

And an oversized anchor is harder to bury deeply, easier to retrieve, easier to re-position, as well as stronger to resist bending.

A larger anchor tends to be more difficult to retrieve in my experience. There is generally not any need to use any more force, unless the wind has been very strong, but you have to wait longer with steady pressure.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

My take is that by the time the shank is cutting into the substrate, the anchor is well set, and when you look at the surface area of the fluke compared to the surface area of the shank, shank resistance to penetration just isn’t really all that significant, if it were I’d expect to see anchor manufacturers grinding a cut edge similar to a cutting tool, but you don’t see that very often.
I believe a built up shank is done to save weight more than to improve strength.

An anchor unless pinned by an immovable object, can’t become immovable, it just requires more force to move it, maybe more force that can be exerted, but it’s not immovable, just enough force hasn’t been exerted.

Where that matters, in my opinion is that if you can bend a shank when it’s in any kind of substrate, then the shank isn’t strong enough.
The manufacturer can make a shank stronger by merely upsizing it, but that may adversely affect the anchors balance and setting ability, or you can make it stronger by being built up from separate pieces, or you can specify “stronger” steel. Higher heat treat cost more, as does being built up.

You shouldn’t be able to bend an anchor by retrieval with a Windlass, the clutch shouldn’t be able to exert enough force, therefore it would seem that if they are being bent on retrieval, it’s by locking out the windlass and using the mass of the boat attempting to break out the anchor?

I have had to once of twice had to do that after a storm, locking the chain with the stopper and rocking the boat back and forth with the throttle to lever one out.
I really only had to do it with real force once, after a near miss from a hurricane and I was anchored in a bayou in dense clay like mud. Took a half hour or so, and I was beginning to think I was going to have to abandon it and pay to have it pulled.

So what I’m saying is that if you can bend an anchor shank, it’s not strong enough. You can’t specify material or design, but you can affect strength by size, which leads me to believe as long as we are talking about a quality product, if you can bend it, it’s not big enough.
The only variable you can control is sizing.

I think this is all quite logical, and I agree with you that anchors shafts OUGHT to be strong enough, not to be capable of being bent by our windlasses.



However, if you read the PS articles, they were bending anchor shafts with just a few hundred kgf of force, much less than the force which can be exerted by a windlass (mine can pull something like 2 tonnes). Shafts of recreational anchors are not very strong in a side pull. So most if not all of our anchors fail your test for sure.

[wsmurdoch]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I can’t imagine any condition that an anchor not caught in rocks or some other immovable condition could bend a shank.

The bent anchor shanks shown in post #35 were bent by Practical Sailor while set in sand/clay by applying a sudden load at 90 degrees to the setting load. I tend to think of soils as viscous liquids. Under a sudden load the soil does not have time to flow and appears to be an unyielding solid. https://www.practical-sailor.com/sai...ng-more-shanks

Bill Murdoch