Replace which anchor?

[sher9016]

Preparing to return to Italy in May/June 2016 on our new boat (1981 Morgan 461). When we purchased it had a one way only, Ideal windlass, a 45 Lb CQR (original name brand as forged on shank) and a 33 Lb Bruce (name brand as forged on shank) on bow and smallish Danforth type on stern.



I have converted the windlass to a two way key fob, and plan on replacing one of the bow anchors. My dilemma is which to replace and which to keep. The Bruce seems a little small, so might replace that one, but Bruce is probably a better anchor than CQR. We used a 45 Lb CQR type last year in Med and had good but not spectacular results; lots of grass in Spain and difficult to set in Grass, and drug once. So might replace CQR. The Danforth is also a little small so might move Bruce to stern and replace Danforth.



Would appreciate opinions on which to keep and which to get rid of and why.



Plan to replace with either Mantus or Rocna. Mantus charts say either 65 Lb or 85 Lb (boat displaces almost 30,000 pounds center cockpit, longish keel, 46 feet). Probably go with 85 lb, if Mantus, but worry about windlass failure. 85 Lbs plus all chain rode might be impossible for me to raise, even if lead back to primary winches. Not altogether sure I can raise the 65 Lb either, but sounds more realistic. I expect the Rocna charts will say the same sizes as the Mantus, but have not looked yet.



Would appreciate thoughts on replacement choices and size; also, plan to use oversize (1 inch?) galvanized swivel and a foot or two of large (heavy) chain at anchor for extra weight right at the shank. Not sure if the extra weight would allow for smaller anchor or not (pretty sure will go with larger size) but like the idea of more weight at the anchor without the hassle of dropping a Keller and retrieving it. Any thoughts?



Thanks for any input.




Jim and Sherrin now aboard Persistent Lady II Sent from my iPad using Cruisers Sailing Forum

[JPA Cate]

If it were me, I'd replace the CQR with the 85 lb. Mantus or Rocna...mostly because of the impression made on me by the pictures of anchors setting in Noelex's thread of that name... The Danforth is still a good kedge and a backup should you need it. It has great holding power where it is pulled only in one direction, so it's good as a stern anchor, too, and not bad as a lunch hook. However, you say "it is a little small". [We still use a 20 lb. High Tensile Danforth for a kedge, and a backup anchor, and it has always done it's job.] I've seen a lot of Bruces used for stern anchors, and anchors are expensive to just get rid of unless you have to to make room for the new one. To me, a 33# lb Bruce seems very small for your boat. We had a 20 kilo one iirc, on this boat, at a mass of !2 tonnes.

By the way, if there is play in the pivot of your CQR, that will severely impair its ability to hold. Happened to friends, and they got it repaired, and it quit dragging. However, in the hard substrate anchorages noelex's thread shows, the CQRs have a very difficult time getting through the weed.

You don't state whether your windlass is manual or electric. Jim replaced a Simpson Lawrence bicycle chain driven manually operated one with an electric windlass. He was really glad he did.

When you think about it, regular 3/8" chain weighs about 2 lbs/ft, so the extra weight of your anchor would only equate to about 20 ft. of chain, if you get the heavier Mantus. I do appreciate your concern, having to use the cockpit winches to get the anchor up is a big pain in the tuckus.

Ann

[Dave Lochner]

Originally Posted by Ann T. Cate

If it were me, I'd replace the CQR with the Mantus or Rocna...mostly because of the impression made on me by the pictures of anchors setting in Noelex's thread of that name... The Danforth is still a good kedge and a backup should you need it. I've seen a lot of Bruces used for stern anchors, and anchors are expensive to just get rid of.

By the way, if there is play in the pivot of your CQR, that will severely impair its ability to hold. Happened to friends, and they got it repaired, and it quit dragging. However, in the hard substrate anchorages noelex's thread shows, the CQRs have a very difficult time getting through the weed.

Ann

Last week the scrap yard gave me a $1 US for a 25 lb CQR knockoff.

Currently I have a 33# original Bruce and a ~20 lb Danforth. Before we cut the ties, we'll add a 44# Rocna, Mantus, or Mason and keep the other 2 anchors. Our boat is 36 ft and about 15,000 lbs.

The windlass manufacturer should be able to tell you how much the windlass can lift. Maxwell says that the windlass should be capable of lifting 3 times the weight of the anchor and chain.

Dave

[robert sailor]

Yes I agree with Anne, if your boat is 46 feet a modern 75-80 lb anchor would be a great fit. As to the stern you could toss a coin between the danforth and bruce although if the danforth is really small I'd keep the bruce as they set well but if the danforth is a decent size ( 25-30 lb) then they are a good choice as they store flat.

[noelex 77]

Congratulations Jim and Sherrin on the new boat.

I don't think it is big decision. With big Mantus or Rocna as the primary anchor you are very unlikely to use the CQR or Bruce much.

I would give some thought as to whether the weight penalty of keeping the spare anchor plus rode on the bow is justified. Personally, I would store it away in a locker keeping the weight out of the ends.

I would keep the Bruce rather than the CQR for the following reasons:

• The Bruce is very good on a short scope. Especially as a kedge, or a second anchor to reduce swinging this is a useful attribute.
• It has no issues of wear of the pivot pin so an old Bruce is as good as a new one.
• CQRs are very good at biting fingers. If you want to use the anchor as a kedge via the dingy or store the anchor in a locker, a Bruce is much easier to move around.
• A Bruce is good in rock (its three flukes usually catch on to something). With the high risk of losing an anchor in this substrate, this may be a time when you don't want to use the new primary, especially for a lunch stop.

The only problem with this is that Bruce anchors need to be large to work well and yours is small. If you have to cut away the main anchor, a very small Bruce is not a very satisfactory replacement.

Originally Posted by sher9016

Would appreciate thoughts on replacement choices and size; also, plan to use oversize (1 inch?) galvanized swivel and a foot or two of large (heavy) chain at anchor for extra weight right at the shank. Not sure if the extra weight would allow for smaller anchor or not (pretty sure will go with larger size) but like the idea of more weight at the anchor without the hassle of dropping a Keller and retrieving it.

The weight, while not great, would be much more efficiently added to the anchor. There is also the problem that the thicker chain and swivel will restrict the diving of the anchor. The end of the shaft penetrates the substrate reasonably early in setting process so even on a shallow set there will be an effect. If the anchor sets deeply the restriction can even cause some "reverse catenary" where the thicker chain held up by the substrate exerts an upwards angle of pull on the anchor.

For these reasons it has been suggested a thin wire stop should be used instead of chain for the first few feet (the anchor manufacturer XYZ even supplied this as standard). This is the exact opposite of your idea.

[Kenomac]

We switched from a 75 pound CQR here in the Med to a 45kg (99 pound) Ultra due to the grass on the sea floor. Had some problems in Spain getting the CQR to bite in. That said, I know of many who've had good results depending on a large CQR for years here in the Med. Why not just wait and see?

Just be aware the roll bar on some anchors will gather up and hold onto large clumps of grass every time you bring it up. It's a hassle, but less so without the roll bar. I can usually get all the grass off the Ultra without digging at it or poking it with a boat hook. It's stainless, so it just washes off if we motor slowly in forward with the anchor just under the surface for a few minutes.