Rocna Mk II

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by smj

We’ve owned quite a few boats without windlass’s. The last was a 38’ catamaran and my wife had no problem hauling the ground tackle by hand, and she was in her early to mid 50’s. Some of us are able to and enjoy physical work, others not.

What sized anchor and chain was this?

The biggest problem I commonly see on boats without an electric windlass is an understandable desire to skimp on the anchor size, together with a tendency not to pull up and re-anchor when you know deep down it is the sensible and safe thing to do.

[smj]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

What sized anchor and chain was this?

The biggest problem I commonly see on boats without an electric windlass is an understandable desire to skimp on the anchor size, together with a tendency not to pull up and re-anchor when you know deep down it is the sensible and safe thing to do.

35 lb Mantus with 80’ 1/4” g4 and 5/8” rode.
On our current boat we have a 45lb Mantus and my wife insisted on a windlass. . Both my wife and I can manhandle the 45lb anchor and chain but choose not to as we are getting older and our bodies aren’t what they used to be. We won’t own a boat for cruising that needs an anchor that to big to handle by hand.

[MicHughV]

I can see where a heavy anchor and some chain hanging straight down could be a problem.
Typically, I would look for a spot at 20' or under....yes, I know, not always possible, but at that depth, a....say 50lb anchor...and some chain is still quite doable by hand.

In a quiet spot. ie. little wind....I could pull the anchor up from the git go....if it was windy, I'd stick the engine in gear for a few seconds to get some momentum going forward, until I was finally right over the anchor.
Another nudge forward from the engine would invariable break the anchor loose, saving me the hassle of trying to dislodge it from the bottom by hand.

I'll caveat this, by repeating what I said earlier....this was all one in my younger days.
Could I do it today...probably, but it might require a two day rest period afterwards

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by smj

On our current boat we have a 45lb Mantus and my wife insisted on a windlass.

Very sensible.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

Typically, I would look for a spot at 20' or under....yes, I know, not always possible, but at that depth, a....say 50lb anchor...and some chain is still quite doable by hand.

This is another drawback of no windlass that I should have mentioned. There is an understandable desire to seek out shallow spots even on the occasions when they are not the most sensible or secure alternatives. In some cases the maximum practical depth can be quite restrictive.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by MicHughV

I can see where a heavy anchor and some chain hanging straight down could be a problem.
Typically, I would look for a spot at 20' or under....yes, I know, not always possible, but at that depth, a....say 50lb anchor...and some chain is still quite doable by hand.

In a quiet spot. ie. little wind....I could pull the anchor up from the git go....if it was windy, I'd stick the engine in gear for a few seconds to get some momentum going forward, until I was finally right over the anchor.
Another nudge forward from the engine would invariable break the anchor loose, saving me the hassle of trying to dislodge it from the bottom by hand.

I'll caveat this, by repeating what I said earlier....this was all one in my younger days.
Could I do it today...probably, but it might require a two day rest period afterwards

Give me one good reason to do it by hand when you have winches all over your boat. For motorboats with broken windlasses I can believe they don’t have a winch (many do) but not for sailboats. Do you haul in the jib sheet by hand and belay it on a cleat? Why wouldn’t you?

[smj]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Very sensible.

Sensible, but in some instances not necessary.

[smj]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Give me one good reason to do it by hand when you have winches all over your boat. For motorboats with broken windlasses I can believe they don’t have a winch (many do) but not for sailboats. Do you haul in the jib sheet by hand and belay it on a cleat? Why wouldn’t you?

Can you tell me the procedure for winching up an all chain rode with a standard winch? Would that entail using a line and chain hook winching the chain in in short sections? If so it seems it would be an almost full time job. If you can handle the anchor by hand, then why not?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by smj

Can you tell me the procedure for winching up an all chain rode with a standard winch? Would that entail using a line and chain hook winching the chain in in short sections? If so it seems it would be an almost full time job. If you can handle the anchor by hand, then why not?

How many boat-lengths of rode do you need to haul in? Very easy with a primary sheet winch and now you can have an anchor that actually works without the need for second anchors, kellets and whatever the obsolete anchors needed

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by smj

Can you tell me the procedure for winching up an all chain rode with a standard winch? Would that entail using a line and chain hook winching the chain in in short sections? If so it seems it would be an almost full time job. If you can handle the anchor by hand, then why not?

You'd presumably hand-haul until it's time to lift the anchor off the bottom (in the interest of speed). Then use the winches for the heavy part of the lift, which is only whatever depth of water you're in. So probably 1 or 2 winch cycles to get it up the rest of the way.

[smj]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

How many boat-lengths of rode do you need to haul in? Very easy with a primary sheet winch and now you can have an anchor that actually works without the need for second anchors, kellets and whatever the obsolete anchors needed

We have an anchor that actually works that we can retrieve by hand.

[smj]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

You'd presumably hand-haul until it's time to lift the anchor off the bottom (in the interest of speed). Then use the winches for the heavy part of the lift, which is only whatever depth of water you're in. So probably 1 or 2 winch cycles to get it up the rest of the way.

Sounds reasonable, but not as fast as pulling the whole mess in by hand. I guess a lot depends on the size of boat that one owns

[Stu Jackson]

I had an anchor that years later I realized was waay too small for my boat but that's not the point of this story.

I got the rode vertical and couldn't haul anymore by hand (which is required with no windlass - I only do local coast cruising and this was in San Francisco Bay).

In Clipper Cove, it was stuck. So I got out a length of line, ran it through the jib sheets fairleads to the bow from the jib sheet winch, and cranked away.

Turns out the fluke of the Bruce had caught a BIG cable! With the boat hook I got a line around the cable and lowered the anchor, dropped the cable, hauled in the anchor, and was free.

I eventually got a Rocna when they first came out to replace the too small Bruce. Since I still only do coastal stuff I only sized the system for 42 knots, still no windlass.

[Kettlewell]

Last fall I purposefully (as a real world test) put Panope in the "teeth" of a 40kt (peak gust) blow in this same low holding "soft mud". I chose the best (bow) anchor type (for that seabed) that I know of. Scope was 8 to 1, rode was 160 feet of 3/8" chain plus 80 feet of Nylon. Boat is 34 LOD and weighs 7.5 tons. Anchor was a 55 pound Mantus M1. By anyone's measure, this is waaaaay oversized.

Result: No sleep. Anchor moved about 30 feet, slowly, over the coarse of the night.

Interesting real-world test! I do think that soft mud is a difficult test for any anchor, though it seems that many in the Chesapeake utilize Danforths and Fortresses successfully. I have not tried a Mantus there yet, but in the past have been able to successfully anchor using a CQR, Fortresses, and Danforths. There does seem to be an advantage dropping a heavy anchor as hard as possible in order to penetrate the ooze on the top. I don't normally do so, but in the Chesapeake and parts of the ICW I will just let the anchor and chain fly to hit the bottom with the maximum force, which does seem to sometimes make a difference. Another technique that has worked many times with a Fortress and Danforth is to give it short, quick jerks, sometimes by hand and other times by the boat engine. In other words, drop the hook, let out a modest amount of scope, then give it three or four quick jerks, but not a steady pull. You can often get the flukes to dig in after a jerk or two. In my experience you do end up moving quite a bit in soft mud until the anchor eventually gets down to firmer holding ground.

In any case, you weathered the blow, so the anchors did work!

[Panope]

Kettlewell,

That "freefall" into soft mud is interesting. Never heard of it. Perhaps the benefit is about ensuring that the anchor remains upright as most anchors freefall with an upright attitude.

Re. "Jerking" to set in soft mud. I have experienced this - not only with Fortress/Danforth, but other types as well. When testing with the Motorboat, a quick burst of power resulting in a speed of about 5 knots will often get a dragging anchor to set. Unfortunately, this technique is not really possible with large anchors and/or slow boats.

In any case, for that particular type of soft mud, I find that the 49 pound Fortress FX-85 is a reliable setter/holder while the 15 pound FX-23 is not.

While I will admit that an FX85 is ridiculously oversized for my boat (in spite of my "bigger is better" philosophy), that is the one I'll carry (in bilge) just because it sets more reliably.

Steve