Rocna Recall - China vs Canada Quality Comparison

[LWatson]

ADMPRTR, it is not so much that the anchor has this or that steel but what the designer (who should know best) has specified and he obviously has his reasons, strength, integrity and not to mention safety. I bought a Rocna on that basis, I did not want to be in a dead end bay with 30+ knots of wind, black as Toby's hole, pissing down with rain and have to worry whether my Chinese anchor will stand up to the strain as the wind whips around and we snatch up on the rode. There are enough things to worry about and the strength of my anchor should not be one of them. I bought the anchor thinking that some time or another I will probably have to put it to the supreme test, now I too am having second thoughts. The problem is if the thing bends and I am driven onto the rocks, who will step up and claim that they made a mistake on the metal (assuming I survive)? That is a question I really do not want to have to find out the answer to. I would have a whole lot more confidence in Rocna if their approach to this problem was not a bunch of denials and at best half truths, simply say that so many anchors were built wrongly and offer a free trade in AND make the things as per the designers specifications, not some "good enough" specs. You should be aware that your anchor is made by a company whose sole claim to fame is making fittings for retail shops, if that makes you happy, then fill your boots my old son. Me, I want my anchor made by a real anchor manufacturer, who has a vested interest in it staying together and hence my security. I really do not much care that this or that anchor is cheaper, when my stern is 100' from the rocks, saving $50 is of little importance. This is not some piece of jewellery on my stem head fitting, it must work and work well, no question if it is or is not strong enough for the task at hand. If what you want is some conversation piece then by all means buy the flavor of the day and moor up in a marina every night. However if you are putting your life and your loved one's life at stake you bloody well better buy the best bit of gound tackle you can, full stop.
There has been too much misinformation on the part of Rocna for my taste, and no real admission that they have a problem, absolutely no mention that they are building the anchors to the specs that Smith said were critical to the performance of the anchor, only some statement that they are in excess of Rina standards. What I personally think of standards is that they are an absolute minimum and in a lot of cases below a benchmark that I consider necessary for safety. Remember if your anchor drags and you are in peril there are NO minimum standards.
In the August Yachting Monthly (UK mag) Rocna states that they are deeply sorry for low spec anchors and WHAT do they propose to do about it? Good question, just more BS that they are in excess of minimum RINA standards. Steve Bambury says Rocna anchors were "not advertised on the basis of the steel they are made of, as this is not what people are typically interested in." Of course, the much maligned Craig, NEVER mentioned that Rocna anchors are made of special steel! Oh yeah, you bet I am interested in what steel is used, especially now that this whole can of worms has been opened.
Luckily I bought my Rocna at West and they have the integrity to offer my money back because of a product that was NOT manufactured to specification and while they do not expressly state, possibly may not meet the use to which I may put the anchor to, i.e. actually using the thing. Unless I can find some compelling reason to suddenly change my mind it is going back and good riddance to Rocna, it has caused me enough sleepness nights, and I am not even at anchor!

[JonJo]

ADMPRTR

I am slightly dumbfounded by your post. If I get this correctly, you are going to sail off with a crew, maybe family, grandkids or whatever possibly stay overnight knowingly using an anchor that might have a shank with a strength at least half of that required in the original design. You might be lucky - I would not want to live with any consequencies of the act of faith you describe. Personally I suspect everything will be fine and at worst the anchor will bend, but still hold (the fluke is efficient) - but I'm not sure your crew will have the same faith in you they you have in your anchor.

I would have thought that under whatever laws of consumer protection exist your chandler would have a tough time denying your desire for a refund. And were you to have problems in gaining that refund a few posts in this Forum, Anything Sailing, Trawler Forum etc would soon crystallise the mind set of the chandler.

[ADMPRTR]

LWatson and JonJo: you make good points but it is not that I am blissfully going in to that maelstrom and crossing my fingers that all will be okay. Believe me, it does burn that I trusted the correspondence I had with Rocna and that I might have been mislead. I paid extra to get the best solution I could afford and now I find that it may have been a situation of bait and switch.

In fact, looking back on that correspondence I found this tidbit from Rocna: "Although the anchors use exactly the same high quality steel as before, the specifications and consistency out of China are way higher than they were – it’s now a significantly superior product." (my emphasis).

That is either a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing or a point of deception. My nature is to assume the former before making the accusations of the latter.

On the other hand, the anchor I bought, while perhaps not as good as was promised, is still an improvement over the anchor I replaced and is probably the best anchor in my price range available domestically on the Canadian market. While my confidence is shaken somewhat I have to trust that it is still effective for the situations I will find myself in.

I take the my role seriously to keep my family and boat safe. But there has to be a point were we say, good enough. If not, then I would never go out. Any hardware has the capability to fail and to fail prematurely. All we can do is try and make the right decisions, keep up maintenance and proceed cautiously.

[JonJo]

ADMPRTR

Have you read the article in Practical Sailor in their September issue, if not its worth a read - but I have only been told about it (I'm not a suscriber) If you cannot access then I believe there is something coming out in one of the UK magazines toward the end of this month, so a couple of weeks time. If I find more I'll let you know and/or maybe someone in this forum can be a bit more specific for you, pdf for PS and actual UK mag? Though its only going to make you feel more morose! But at least you are aware which is possibly more than many Rocna owners.

[ADMPRTR]

Yes, I saw it today when it was referred to in an earlier post.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by ADMPRTR

In fact, looking back on that correspondence I found this tidbit from Rocna: "Although the anchors use exactly the same high quality steel as before, the specifications and consistency out of China are way higher than they were – it’s now a significantly superior product." (my emphasis).

That is either a case of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing or a point of deception. My nature is to assume the former before making the accusations of the latter.

On the other hand, the anchor I bought, while perhaps not as good as was promised, is still an improvement over the anchor I replaced and is probably the best anchor in my price range available domestically on the Canadian market. While my confidence is shaken somewhat I have to trust that it is still effective for the situations I will find myself in.

I take the my role seriously to keep my family and boat safe. But there has to be a point were we say, good enough. If not, then I would never go out. Any hardware has the capability to fail and to fail prematurely. All we can do is try and make the right decisions, keep up maintenance and proceed cautiously.

Just as a point of clarification, this is not a scenario of the right hand not knowing what the left hand is doing because Rocna consists of Steve Bambury and maybe one other part time person. He runs the company out of his garage in NZ. The information given you on the steel used in their anchors was false because they wanted it to be false, a.k.a., they were intentionally lying.

The design of the Rocna has never been in question. When Peter Smith borrowed design features from the Bugel and the Spade he came up with a fine hybrid copy that was dependent on a thin shank for weight balance. That's why he went on so much about using high grade steel in that shank - anything less "would not be entertained", to use his words. Bambury chose to use lesser steel to increase profits and what happens to you and your family as a result is of no interest to him.

The reason this topic is so fascinating to so many is not because evedryone owns Rocnas, at least I don't, but because it is a textbook case on everything that shouldn't be done in business coupled with a really interesting study in psychology. Why does Bambury lie when the truth would serve him better? Why do people who have been punked by purchasing a Rocna defend the company? Why do suppliers who know the product is sub standard still sell it? Soap opera at its best.

[ADMPRTR]

Originally Posted by Delfin

Soap opera at its best.

Yes, that it is. I have contacted Rocna with my concerns to see if there is any response. I wouldn't be surprised if some one mentions the word "Class action suit"

[sarafina]

Originally Posted by LWatson

I would have a whole lot more confidence in Rocna if their approach to this problem was not a bunch of denials and at best half truths, simply say that so many anchors were built wrongly and offer a free trade in AND make the things as per the designers specifications, not some "good enough" specs.

Originally Posted by Delfin

The reason this topic is so fascinating to so many is not because evedryone owns Rocnas, at least I don't, but because it is a textbook case on everything that shouldn't be done in business coupled with a really interesting study in psychology. Why does Bambury lie when the truth would serve him better?

This aspect has fascinated me. Had Rocna stepped up to bat, owned the problem and offered to resolve it, they would have put all critics into silent mode and come out smelling like a rose.

Instead they have made EVErY misstep possible for a company to make in regards to public relations and customer service.

All I can think is the owner knows that there are SO MANY sub standard anchors out there with his name on it that a comprehensive recall/replacement policy would bankrupt him.

I guess he is betting that most people don't ever use their anchors, many only use it in very undemanding conditions and that the small percentage of sailors who do make heavy use of their anchor would be easier to deal with on a one to one basis.

Given that just LOOKING at your anchor doesn't guarantee you can tell if it is a weak shank or not, they must be hoping that most customers will let it slide.

And they would probably be right most of the time. Unfortunately for them the internet now provides a venue where a small demographic can come together in a way they never would have even 10 years ago, and become a voice (fair or not) loud enough to be heard.

That is what has happened here. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[careka]

Here is my new Rockna, got it from a guy ho did buy it in the US, and took it home to Norway to put it on his HR, but it did not fit on the bow.
so i got it cheep.
for the anchoring i will be dooing, it will do the job . i will keep my Delta in spear as a second anchor. will se how it goes, as it is beeing used.













IT IS SOLD BY THE CANADIAN SELLER, BUT IS SAYING MADE IN CHINA,
and i hope it is doing what it is supose to do, stay well planted into the bottom and hold me there.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by careka

IT IS SOLD BY THE CANADIAN SELLER, BUT IS SAYING MADE IN CHINA,
and i hope it is doing what it is supose to do, stay well planted into the bottom and hold me there.

The former Canadian manufacturer of Rocna is now their exclusive North American distributor.

[cat man do]

Coming in late but were these "CAST" ?
(Looking at the rocna name and model number cast into the fwd face)

[Hydra]

Originally Posted by cat man do

Coming in late but were these "CAST" ?
(Looking at the rocna name and model number cast into the fwd face)

Yes, I suppose so. The letters aren't painted, it would be too costly to have them engraved, IIRC Rocna never mentioned forging.

Alain

[GMac]

Yes a lot of the chinese ones were cast, not all but a lot.

A quick calmer for those confused, and many are.

Any built in NZ or Canada are perfectly fine, do not stress or worry about those. The issues are only with the ones made in China. How many of those is up for debate. The party line seems to suggest 'around 300 that went to Nth America only', but that can not be the truth as ones purchased from a retailer in Auckland NZ were tested and found to be low grade ones, those are the ones Manson have on their website. 4 others purchased in NZ have also been tested and the results were the same as the Manson ones ie poor. So it appears either someone is telling porkies about how many dodgy ones and where they went or NZ has been part of some world systemic shift and has moved somehow north of the Equator with out anyone noticing.

Do we see this as a big issue?
Apart from the despicable total ******** way the 2 Banburys (dad Brian, the mastermind, or Puppet-master as I have heard him referred to as, and son Steve) have done and handled all this aside, Not massively.

The loads many get on anchors is far lower than the general thought suggests they are or at least 90% of the time. So most of the dodgy Rocnas will be fine for a lot of people. We do not see them flying to bits. Nor do we see them changing shape as they hit the water. But if put under big loads during a big blow or maybe stressed while veering due to wind or tidal change the chances are then you may see an issue, which will probably be only a bent or snapped shank.

Obviously that is far from ideal so if you think you may push your anchor I'd say change it. If you are only a fair weather boater you'll probably be fine.

No NZ or Canadian made ones had the name cast into the back of the foot, only chinese made ones have that. But not all chinese one have that.

In some batches someone wasn't that smart and left some stickers on them. If your anchor has a sticker saying 'Q620' or Q420' that is not a Quality Checker number as you often see on other goods, those were so they could tell which ones were built from what metal. We have some here still with the stickers left on them.... the idiots.

Sadly nobody wants to buy them anymore. Rocna enquiries have just stopped dead. It's all Supremes or Excels these days.

[cat man do]

Originally Posted by GMac

Yes a lot of the chinese ones were cast, not all but a lot.

Would they then be brittle?
Thats usually the story with cast iron isn't it?

[JonJo]

These are meant to be cast steel, and being brittle has never been an issue. In fact the idea of casting has never been an issue (except no-one told RINA - so their certificate excludes anything with a cast fluke). The RINA certificate is perfectly valid, its has been awarded correctly - but only covers anchors made with hi-tensile steel shanks (so not the 420 steel shanked model) and those with folded and welded plate steel flukes ( so not the smaller models that most of buy). And do not continue to be misled - many of the purveyors of Rocnas are still claiming RINA certification (omitting to mention the exclusions - and anything stainless is also excluded, does not include much really! - but that's advertising Rocna style).

I might correct Gmac, slightly.

Basically all anchors from China had cast flukes, other than those over 55kg - which were produced from folded and welded plate flukes. Sadly this means an anchor of 55kg or over whether made in NZ, with a Bisplate 80 shank, or made in China with a Q420 or Q620 shank look identical. Some of the bigger anchors made in China have laminated shanks, 2 thin btis of plate welded together. Theoretically fine, unless there is a hole in the weld and then you will have corrosion that you cannot see.

So returning to the cast fluke - basically all anchors less than 55kg made in China have cast flukes. Providing you can note the lack of welds on the fluke - its cast.