Rocna Size

[boatman61]

ROTFLMBO.....

[sailorboy1]

I wonder what ever happened with the orginal size question?

[S/V Alchemy]

According to Rocna, size doesn't matter.

The Admiral begs to differ.

[mikereed100]

Originally Posted by Don Lucas

I wonder what ever happened with the orginal size question?

Looks like that was resolved around post #21, in a thread that has 463 posts and counting! It's a shame that most of this discussion on Rocna quality is buried in a thread on Rocna size.

[Alecadi]

Originally Posted by Kashmir cat

Or maybe his only son bought a Rocna and it broke. I heard he was a fisherman. I'm just speculating now, but maybe because the anchor broke, Jesus's boat got blown out to sea and he had to walk all the way back to shore. That could make a guy real mad.

He was not a fisherman, He was a carpenter and has no use of an anchor as such

[impi]

Guys, personally still requiring answers from the supplier:

Here is the last information recieved by Rocna
From: Martina Dobbyn
Sent: Friday, 24 June 2011 2:31 p.m.
To: 'pprecey@absolutemarine.co.nz'; 'thomas@altomarine.com'; 'info@marinefactors.co.uk'; 'ln@denrex.com'; 'info@indemar.com'; 'soernsen@lindemann-kg.de'; 'marinescene@gmail.com'; 'sales@oceansolutions.co.au'; 'simon@stormforcemarine.com'; 'ruud.roos@roschmarine.nl'; 'info@suncoastmarine.ca'; 'courrier@vidalmarine.com'; 'uonmarine@email.com'; 'info@origin-marine.com'; 'Graeme@seaport.co.nz'; 'o.salah@mapson.com'; 'offprom@mweb.co.za'
Subject: Production FAQ's (files attached on previous email)
Importance: High



Dear all

We know that the recent discussions about Rocna on the forums are causing many customers to contact you with questions, and to assist you in responding to them we have put together a list of responses to frequently asked questions.

Our key message is that independent testing has shown that all Rocna anchors, regardless of where or when they were manufactured, can be expected to display extraordinary holding power and strength, exceeding RINA’s Super High Holding Power proof loads several times over and withstanding loads well beyond the point at which the connected chain would break.

Using the Rocna Production FAQs:
-You can copy and paste answers as needed from the attached document to respond to queries by email, or
-You can refer your customers to a special page on our website that we have set up to answer these questions

Production FAQs on Rocna website
In the questions coming through to us, we have seen that not everyone has the same concerns and we are mindful of answering only the questions that people have so as not to create further unnecessary concern.

With this in mind we have set up two versions of the Production FAQs website page:
1.For people concerned with current production only: http://www.rocna.com/production-faq

This page talks about the standards to which Rocna anchors are made, that recent testing of current production anchors displayed holding power in excess of six times RINA’s Super High Holding Power proof load, and clarifies that bent shanks are not an issue for Rocna anchors.


2.For people concerned about the small number of anchors made with the alternate steel: http://www.rocna.com/production-faqs

This page contains the same content as the other page, but goes on to detail the testing done to confirm that the anchors made with the alternate steel also exceed RINA’s proof load requirements by a significant margin, clearly demonstrating the significant factor of safety in our design.


We thank you for your continued support of Rocna, and we are looking forward to putting this situation behind us all.

If there is anything else we can do to support you in responding to customer queries, please don’t hesitate to let me know. I can be reached at tina@rocna.co.nz.

Kind regards,
Tina

[impi]

This was one of the attached word docs to the email posted by me above:

PRODUCTION FAQs


Where are Rocna anchors made?
Rocna anchors have been manufactured in three different countries (New Zealand, Canada, and China). Following extensive evaluations and testing we moved our production to a Chinese manufacturing facility in 2009.
We partnered with a well-respected manufacturer in Shanghai, who produce Rocna anchors in their ISO-9001 accredited facility. We also have our own in-country staff who work closely with the factory and provide independent audits as part of our comprehensive quality assurance program.
In addition we have formed a long-term relationship with Italian based RINA (Registro Italiano Navale), an internationally recognized leader in certification and assessment of conformity, who have also been actively involved in our quality assurance program.

What grade of steel are Rocna anchors made from?
The exact materials used are part of the proprietary intellectual property involved in our production specifications, and grades of steel are carefully chosen to ensure they exceed the RINA Super High Holding Power (SHHP) requirements by a considerable margin, as mentioned above.
While our manufacturing material specifications have evolved over time, primarily to reflect the material locally available in the different countries where our anchors have been produced, our technical website content had remained largely unchanged. This oversight has recently been brought to our attention and we apologize for any confusion this may have caused. We have now updated this website content accordingly.

To what standards are Rocna anchors constructed?
All Rocna anchors are designed to meet or exceed the requirements of SHHP according to RINA and Lloyds rules, and our relationship with RINA has resulted in Type Approval classification to SHHP (currently Rocna Original sizes 4kg-110kg only – you can see our certificate here). This involved extensive seabed tests, mechanical tests, and drawings approval, and our work with RINA continues.
Current production anchors were recently tested and found to withstand forces well in excess of six times the SHHP proof load requirements. This load also exceeds the breaking strength of the recommended G40 chain by a considerable margin, clearly demonstrating the significant factor of safety in our design.

I’ve seen pictures of Rocna anchors with bent shanks. Is this is a common problem?
While it is widely acknowledged within the marine industry that any anchor can have its shank bent should its fluke become immobilized and experience exceptional strains, it is actually extremely rare for the shank of a Rocna to bend, both due to the strength of the shank and because in normal use the Rocna veers with changing loads while remaining embedded.
It is not the common occurrence that people online would like to imply, and we have not experienced any increase in bent shanks since our production moved to China.
Worldwide we have had only eight Rocna anchors returned to us with bent shanks – that’s it, over the lifetime of our business. The images seen online represent most of these cases reported to us, as they were all originally supplied to Rocna as part of the associated warranty claims.


Each case is treated on an individual basis and we have maintained happy customers throughout. We have examples where the anchors were undersized for the boat, where the anchor has become hooked on something in the seabed, or has encountered some form of resistance on being winched back on board. In all cases, even where the anchor was undersized for the boat, we offered the customers a free replacement.
One bent shank was the result of withstanding a tsunami off the coast of Chile – the owner of this particular Rocna was delighted to have held strong throughout and felt lucky to escape with only a damaged anchor. His was the only boat that remained in place during the tsunami. While all other boats were washed to shore, his didn’t budge.

Why have tests on Rocna anchors shown a different grade of steel than expected?
For a period of time during the first quarter of 2010, the shanks of some Rocna anchors were manufactured with steel sourced from a different supplier than usual.
While this steel had been approved on the understanding that it was of the same specification as that used previously, we recently discovered that this was not the case and that some anchors were produced using shank steel with a reduced specification. We stress that only a limited number of anchors were affected and at the same time we are deeply sorry for this mistake and apologise for any concern this may have created.
Since discovering this discrepancy, our primary concern has been to ensure that these particular anchors are undeniably fit for purpose and pose no safety risk.
With this in mind we engaged a number of professional independent organizations to undertake extensive evaluations and testing. This has been a comprehensive and time-consuming process that is now complete. The results are:
· Our current production anchors were independently load tested using the RINA Super High Holding Power (SHHP) Type Approval test methodology. SHHP is the highest anchor rating available.
· Due to the unavailability of any of the limited number of anchors produced with the alternate material, we engaged a highly reputable marine engineering consulting company to calculate the maximum load capability of these anchors.
· The model developed predicted the load capability of the current production anchors within 1% of the demonstrated value, validating the accuracy of the model.
· The model then calculated a load capability for the alternate specification anchors of 471% of the RINA SHHP Proof Load requirements.
· This load capability exceeds the breaking point of the recommended G40 chain rode by a considerable margin.
These results confirm that all Rocna anchors, including those produced with alternate material, exceed RINA’s proof load requirements by a significant margin, clearly demonstrating the significant factor of safety in our design.

[impi]

This was the 2nd word file attached to the email posted by me above:

I have set up two website pages that can be sent to customers who have questions about the forum issues.

There are two versions:
1) For people who are specifically asking about the lower spec steel: http://www.rocna.com/production-faqs
2) For people who have not specifically asked about the lower spec steel: http://www.rocna.com/production-faq

The content is very similar across both, but for the first page addresses the testing we did on the Q420 anchors, while the second focuses on the testing done on current production anchors.

[impi]

In context with the postings by Impi above, I must thank my supplier for being 'totally open book' with me on this issue - he really has done everything possible to get the answers I need and I hope his efforts will also assist those of us who have Rocnas on our vessels.

[marinextreme]

Unbelievable!

Just shows how far you can stretch and bend the truth and just how evasive they are.

The truth will never be admitted by them so each owner of one of these just has to make up their own mind.

He forgets to mention the 400mpa ones that were made in 2008 and continued until mid 2009 of which the Venice spaghetti noodle was one.

Never mind "only a few in early 2010" they were the same all the way along.

But its easier to just move the goalposts isnt it.

[sailingaway221]

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

AS I have said and stood by all along... by far the best anchor I have ever had

[sailingaway221]

Originally Posted by marinextreme

Unbelievable!

Just shows how far you can stretch and bend the truth and just how evasive they are.

The truth will never be admitted by them so each owner of one of these just has to make up their own mind.

He forgets to mention the 400mpa ones that were made in 2008 and continued until mid 2009 of which the Venice spaghetti noodle was one.

Never mind "only a few in early 2010" they were the same all the way along.

But its easier to just move the goalposts isnt it.

Nothing personal, but it looks like the goalposts are in the same spot as always... they just went and found a referee for the match instead of letting one team make up the rules wouldn't you say?

[impi]

YouTube - ‪Rocna anchor - demonstration and comparison testing (English subtitles - no audio)‬‏

Good illustration of how well the Rocna sets

[sailorboy1]

While I'm not a Rocna fan and bought a Mason Surpreme instead; I think we are working too hard to continue to pound on this issue.

I don't think any company would ever admit to making a product that did not meet spec. But I feel they kind have admited this in a way.

They said they approved a change, but the web site was not upgraded. So to them the metal was good but they failed to change the web-site spec that we of course read. I call this an oops! And like they say the lower grade metal is still way more than strong enough as considered as part of ones complete anchoring setup.

They say that there was a problem where some metal got used that didn't meet their spec and it has been changed. I guess they could have lanuched a campagian to get the word out so people could somehow check if this effected their anchors.

So far I have not seen anyone document a Ronca failing to hold a boat due to any of these "issues". No anchors have pulled apart.

If anything I feel Rocna is trying too hard to cover themselves by all the mentioning of RINA standards that make it sound too much like a cover-up.

It's time to let it go! Readers of the issue are now set in their beliefs, and everyone else I'm sure are at more of a danger by their anchoring methods that by any Rocna anchor they may have.

[Delfin]

What grade of steel are Rocna anchors made from?
The exact materials used are part of the proprietary intellectual property involved in our production specifications, and grades of steel are carefully chosen to ensure they exceed the RINA Super High Holding Power (SHHP) requirements by a considerable margin, as mentioned above.

That's very funny. When they were using proper steel in their anchors, they had the steel specifications blazoned all over their web site as critical to functionality. When they changed the steel to below specification they did so without advising customers that the steel wasn't what they said it was. Now that they have been called out on the deception, they had two choices. Admit the mistake and start making anchors that are as strong as say, a Manson; or keep making them out of sub standard steel and figure out some way to make it fly.

They chose the latter and the solution is brilliant! Refuse to tell anyone what you're making the things out of on the basis that it is 'intellectual property'! Now, they can make them out of whatever rubbish they want to and it will all be just a closely guarded secret what they did.

So, new Rocna purchasers won't know what that hunk of steel on their bow is made of, nor whether it will bend in a side load, but they will have the assurance that the anchor has secrets. Now that will be worth the premium they will have to pay!

And based on the comments above, they will have customers, which is perhaps the most remarkable aspect of this drama after all, expecially given the availability of alternative products of equivalent or better performance made by honest people.