Rocna Size

[marinextreme]

Originally Posted by conachair

Devils advocate for a moment and ignoring the dodgy company dealings - if, as they say, only 8 have ever been returned with bent shanks then even with lower tensile steel maybe they aren't as deadly as some of the more senstionalist posters would have everyone believe.

Too little data the draw any meaningful conclusions. No one knows.

the number quoted is another lie.

[conachair]

so how many were returned?

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Hydra

The class certificate issued by RINA to Rocna (http://www.rocna.com/assets/Uploads/Rocna-RINA-Cert.pdf) mentions the Chinese company that produces the anchors. Here is what they say of themselves:
About us-Shanghai Pangtong Business Enterprise Development Co., Ltd.

Shanghai Pangtong Business Enterprise Development Co., Ltd. is a modernized professional stainless steal [sic!] decoration product corporation. We are specialized in the design, manufacture and installation of metal decoration projects. We have some advanced and reliable devices, different punching machines, folding side machines, plate shearing machines, full sets of metal processing equipment and others. Besides the strong financial background, we also employ professional staffs who are skilled decoration designers, engineers and experienced technicians. And we have applied complete MIS for the production control. Our corporation considers trustworthiness and standard service as the core of the enterprise culture.
[...]
Our main operating scope is as follow: contract the producing and installing various types of top grade metal decoration products, such as revolving gates, auto gates, revolute stairs, railings, handrails, canopies, flagpoles, elevator wrapping plates, stainless steel cold paint-less big lamp-boxes, environment protection dustbins, and kitchen devices, and other large-scale metal decoration projects. What's more, we can manufacture products in accordance with the requirements and drawings of the clients. Our motto is to keep our promises and to regard customers' benefits as our own. Our tenet is to develop by management, to live on quality, and supply service normatively.

ISO 9001 certification and manufacturing carbon steel anchors don't appear in this text...

Alain

Good observation. Kind of like hiring a light bulb manufacturer to build your weapons grade laser system. Both lights, aren't they?

What I think we can know about this manufacturer is that they will be CHEAP relative to the firm used to make the product in NZ.

[avb3]

Originally Posted by Hydra

The class certificate issued by RINA to Rocna (http://www.rocna.com/assets/Uploads/Rocna-RINA-Cert.pdf) mentions the Chinese company that produces the anchors. Here is what they say of themselves:
About us-Shanghai Pangtong Business Enterprise Development Co., Ltd.

.........

ISO 9001 certification and manufacturing carbon steel anchors don't appear in this text...

Alain

Good catch!

That blows the "purpose built factory" claim out of the water, doesn't it.

Wow... the hyperbole that comes out of Rocna just does not end.

BTW, to those that have Rocna's produced in NZ or Canada, you bought the original that was built to specifications.

Those that have the Chinese ones... well... let's just say the term "smoke" and "mirrors" could probably be used in an apt description as the company has been very economical with the truth.

[tsmwebb]

Originally Posted by conachair

Devils advocate for a moment and ignoring the dodgy company dealings - if, as they say, only 8 have ever been returned with bent shanks then even with lower tensile steel maybe they aren't as deadly as some of the more senstionalist posters would have everyone believe.

Too little data the draw any meaningful conclusions. No one knows.

Yes, I would not be surprised at all if a lot more Fortress anchors get replaced than Rocnas because of bent shanks. The Fortress is a good anchor when used appropriately and I keep one on my boat. Comparatively, the "new" Rocna may survive will when loaded off axis. Indeed, the Rocna is probably still a fine anchor. But, I think that misses the point. They charge a substantial premium based largely on construction with specific and exceptionally high quality material. Their response to being caught out substituting cheaper ingredients is to say the product is safe. I suspect the product is safe for a reasonable definition of safe. Though, as you point out, we don't have much data. However, safe or not the anchors are not made with the premium material that was advertised. The anchors made with cheaper steel may be as good or better than the average anchor at surviving off axis loads but it seems almost certain that they are weaker than they would be if made with the advertised metal. If the new Rocna is substantially weaker or even just substantially different than the old but was advertised as being the same anchor that is a problem even if the new anchor is suitable to its service. And, of course, if they have been dishonest about the material is it safe to believe that they are telling us all they know about the returns? I hope they are but they have a problem with trust now.

Tom.

[Fortress]

Originally Posted by tsmwebb

Yes, I would not be surprised at all if a lot more Fortress anchors get replaced than Rocnas because of bent shanks. The Fortress is a good anchor when used appropriately and I keep one on my boat. Tom.

Tom,

As a Fortress anchor owner, you might be aware that we offer a Lifetime Parts Replacement Warranty, so if you or any other customer ever damages an anchor part such as the shank, we will replace it for free and the customer only pays a nominal cost for shipping & handling of the new part. The damaged part does not need to be returned to us.

I am sure that we have had more damaged shanks than Rocna by the fact alone that we have been in business now for over 20 years, as compared to Rocna who has only been in business for a short time by comparison.

If you are implying that the Fortress shank is more likely to bend because it is made from an aluminum-magnesium alloy, then I respectfully beg to differ. Our shanks are designed to be thickened and heightened with additional material at the critical load points, and they are tapered by precision-machining from top to bottom to insure greater structural strength and disbursement of the load.

In the US Navy tests, the comparable steel anchors were all destroyed, and this comment was written in the summary of the report:

"The fact that the Fortress anchors incurred no significant structural damage at such high holding ratios suggests that the anchors have been extensively engineered from both the hydrodynamic and structural standpoints."

Our anchors have been made the same way out of the same material at the same Ft. Lauderdale, Florida manufacturing facility during the entire time we have been in business, and that is not likely to change anytime in the future.

Best regards,

Brian
Fortress Marine Anchors

[Shawn67]

Originally Posted by Bash

Proprietary intellectual property? Funny. When I bought my Made-in-Canada Rocna, they advertised the exact grade of steel being used, claiming that this was why their anchors were so much more expensive than others.

In April the Rocna CEO was still claiming that they were made out of 800mpa steel.

I hate to do this...but - Page 7 - Yachting and Boating World Forums

Shawn

[tsmwebb]

Originally Posted by Fortress

Tom,

As a Fortress anchor owner, you might be aware that we offer a Lifetime Parts Replacement Warranty, ...

If you are implying that the Fortress shank is more likely to bend because it is made from an aluminum-magnesium alloy, then I respectfully beg to differ. ......
Best regards,

Brian
Fortress Marine Anchors

Sorry Brian, I am very fond of my Fortress anchor, am aware of its warranty, and think that it is both very well designed and constructed. I did not intend to suggest that the alloy it is made from is problematic compared to other Danforth style anchors. I have bent Danforth style anchors but not a Fortress. I have seen and know of Fortress anchors that have been bent. Danforth style anchors have a reputation for being less durable than heavier designs. I mentioned Fortress because I think it is the best of its type and the type is very good. My point was that even a premium anchor will bend in some circumstances. However, even if the new Rocna is as durable as a fine anchor like the Fortress I do not feel that justifies Rocna changing the materials and selling it as the same anchor.

I am sorry for any confusion. In retrospect I shouldn't have named names in this thread. I don't think Rocna is doing the industry any favors and it is not fair to associate other players with their unfortunate practices.

Tom.

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by tsmwebb

Sorry Brian, I am very fond of my Fortress anchor, am aware of its warranty, and think that it is both very well designed and constructed. I did not intend to suggest that the alloy it is made from is problematic compared to other Danforth style anchors. I have bent Danforth style anchors but not a Fortress. I have seen and know of Fortress anchors that have been bent. Danforth style anchors have a reputation for being less durable than heavier designs. I mentioned Fortress because I think it is the best of its type and the type is very good. My point was that even a premium anchor will bend in some circumstances. However, even if the new Rocna is as durable as a fine anchor like the Fortress I do not feel that justifies Rocna changing the materials and selling it as the same anchor.

I am sorry for any confusion. In retrospect I shouldn't have named names in this thread. I don't think Rocna is doing the industry any favors and it is not fair to associate other players with their unfortunate practices.

Tom.

Well said, Tom.

[sarafina]

My god. Aren't you guys tired of this topic by now?

Yeah I know, it's an anchor thread what do I expect? For anyone to actually change their opinion?

; -)

*now where IS that dead horse....*

[Kettlewell]

It is like reading a good novel--can't wait for the next chapter. Usually these threads are just a lot of arguing about who has the biggest opinions, but in this case new facts seem to emerge every few days that change the story.

[GMac]

Originally Posted by sailingaway221

They admitted the mistake, refunded anyone that wanted it and continue to build and sell fantastic anchors. The test results were not negative for Rocna. The bad metal anchors were still 471 % stronger than they needed to be. The fact is that I have beaten on my anchor repeatedly... loaned it to guys to hang heavier boats than mine off during hurricanes and the thing has been 100% bulletproof. I believe very strongly in proven facts and my anchor has beyond any shadow of a doubt proven to be the most reliable thing on my boat. As long as their anchors get positive reviews form the people that use them they will continue to outsell all the others.

A couple of corrections.
There wasn't a mistake to admit. They made the change intentionally and tried to keep it quite. They knew exactly what they were doing, the company is run by a control freak.

They aren't the best performing anchor all the time, far from it. Watch the video on their own website and all the anchors in it then the list of results at the end, you'll notice one well know top end performing anchor is in the vid but not in the results. I'm sure you can guess why. Add up all the worldwide tests and you'll find Supreme is leading Rocna. There was some totally independent testing done in Aussie, the Govt there are bring in new funny rules, in a range of bottom types and the Rocna did well, it came 4rd equal but still a long way behind 1 and 2. It cleaned up the Delta and CQR, but that's not a surprise.

No way in hell does Rocna outsell all others, not even close. In fact of the leading bunch Rocna would sell the least number. They sell a fair few but in anchorland numbers they are a minor player numbers wise.

Oh and anyone else wondering why Holdfast sent out Press Releases last year claiming they had RINA and have been implying that for a long long time yet the Certificate is only dated a couple of weeks ago?

Does that make the Rocna a bad anchor? Construction issues to one side, No it doesn't. Does coming 4th equal ina pretty damn comprehensive test programme make it a bad one? Nope. Hell, a Lamborghini is often rated 3 to 4th best super car but I'd still give my left one to have a Lambo.

Does all this make Holdfast a highly trust able straight up transparent company you can trust your life with, hell No.

It's not a issue of anchor design, it's one of trust as in can Holdfast be relied on to tell the truth. It would be damn hard to say Yes to that at the moment.

But people will still buy them. I sold a 20 a couple of hours ago, but only after telling the punter of what's been going on. He's willing to take a punt he'll be OK. Mind you his existing system is that crap a milkbottle full of sand would have been an improvement

This is a fascinating thread in so many ways. One of the stand outs is how many seem to put their entire faith in what a company will tell you, especially when its 100% in that companies interest to be creative to sell their product. This obviously isn't exclusive to Holdfast/Rocna and more just a general observation. I'm sure we all to it to varying degrees but is it a sign marketers can these days say just about any old crap and we'll suck it up as the truth?

[avb3]

Originally Posted by sarafina

My god. Aren't you guys tired of this topic by now?

Yeah I know, it's an anchor thread what do I expect? For anyone to actually change their opinion?

Well, we are discussing not doing this:

; -)

*now where IS that dead horse....*

You mean this one?

So, now that I had my fun with animated gif's, on a serious note I do believe it is important that threads like this develop.

If this thread had died out 2 months ago, all the new revelations would not have seen the light of day, and perhaps Holdfast/Rocna would not have admitted their deception

It is also important that people are able to make judgements on companies they can trust (in this case West Marine, who have taken all Rocna anchors back presented to them), and Rocna, which twisted, turned, obfuscated and generally distanced themselves from much semblance of the truth.

Perhaps, just maybe it will be a lesson to other companies not to market one thing, and sell another and should a mistake happen, own up to it early, often and rectify it as soon as possible.

Yes, the thread is valuable.

[sarafina]

I never thought the thread lacked value. As an anchor thread this one has been peerless both in content and civility ; -)

I just confess to bemusement that after 400 posts it still has, I don't know, investment(?) in it? I stop in because anchor threads always stay on the mods radar not because I am much interested in the topic. But most of you are here because you do care.

I have learned a lot. I am replacing my milk jug of sand asap...

I mean, carry on by all means. I am aware of how this thread and others like it have put the squeeze on the anchor companies. And that's a good thing I think.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by sarafina

I have learned a lot. I am replacing my milk jug of sand asap...

Did it fail the hardness test?