Rocna Size

[tartansail]

Originally Posted by SailFastTri

Because if I felt the need for a tripline I'd like to know it will work, not that it might work.

I have a Manson Supreme on order because the two brands seemed comparable and the Manson was lower priced. (The 35# CQR that came with the boat seems undersized so I'm also going up in size.) I assumed that, when I wanted to rig a tripline, I'd just clip it onto the rollbar. What do others do if they're concerned about snagging rocks with either of these anchors.

[tartansail]

Originally Posted by tartansail

I have a Manson Supreme on order because the two brands seemed comparable and the Manson was lower priced. (The 35# CQR that came with the boat seems undersized so I'm also going up in size.) I assumed that, when I wanted to rig a tripline, I'd just clip it onto the rollbar. What do others do if they're concerned about snagging rocks with either of these anchors.

I just saw the new thread on this topic. Apologies for the thread drift posting.

[beetle]

Originally Posted by Alecadi

I repeat what I've said on other thread here: If you don't want to buy made in China products, you'll go naked, without computer, phone, cellphone, TV, recorder, toothpaste, food, most of your car etc etc etc... 85% of all the products available to us in the USA are made in China, even, and foremost, when we are talking about US brand
So why not an NZ anchor
I really don't get it

It's a trust issue - I've seen enough poor quality castings (at least in anchors) that I don't trust the Chinese quality control for the single anchor I will have on the bottom that my boat is lying to. It's not a catastrophe if my toothpaste, TV, or cellphone stops working. It's not even that bad if my car stops running - I just pull over to the side of the road and I'm ok. It's a significantly greater problem if the anchor breaks.

Two second-hand anecdotes (which I've heard directly from the people involved): brand new 45 foot trawler, built in China (reasonable build quality) with stainless steel fasteners of hit-or-miss quality - some of the fasteners do not rust while perhaps 40% rust out and have to be replaced; the owner has been chasing bad metal for two years now.

And then there's the prop shaft: the shaft is about 12 feet long and needs to have a specific stiffness to handle the load. The 'builder' (in the US) had a prop shaft made in the states and shipped over to the factory in China, the folks putting the boat together saw how beautiful the shaft was and decided it was way overkill (not to mention expensive) for a boat so they fabricated their own shaft, sold the US shaft, and installed theirs in the boat - all without telling the 'builder' or the buyer. When the boat was in sea trials the bending in the shaft made it clear the material was way under-spec'd and that's when it came out what had happened with the prop shaft.

I try to purchase good quality products for my boat and that often means hunting down products where the builder has a reputation for quality. So far I haven't seen that in cast anchors from China. I'd much rather have a drop-forged anchor (the old adage: 'ever break a hammer?'), rolled/welded, or a cast anchor from a group that has a proven history of quality castings.

Hopefully it will turn out the China castings will be of high quality, and then we'll all be happy to have one - and I haven't seen that happen yet. I believe the problem boils down to convincing the people working directly with the metal that buyers are willing to spend more for good metal and high build quality, even though the product (an anchor, in this case) looks exactly the same as an one built with cheaper materials and lower quality for less money.

- rob/beetle

[S/V Alchemy]

I have broken a hammer. Perhaps it was Chinese?

Anyway, I concur completely with the above. I find Chinese work is certainly capable of being as good as any Western work, but there is very little in their reputation to provide that assurance.

[Captain Randy]

Thanks everyone for all the great advise. So here's what I decided on and the anchors I purchased yesterday. Taking the prudent advice I went one size up and purchased a 60 lb. Manson Supreme and will use as my primary. I purchased a 44 lb Delta as my secondary. I am having a custom built double roller set up built for my bow to carry both anchors while coastal hoping and will stow the Delta when on passage.

The Rocna's seem to only be available stamped as Chinese and since I need to purchase now, the logic presented on the Manson makes allot of sense.

Lord knows I don't want my China built Cheoy Lee to depend on a Chinese anchor!

Fair Winds
Captain Randy

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Captain Randy

Thanks everyone for all the great advise. So here's what I decided on and the anchors I purchased yesterday. Taking the prudent advice I went one size up and purchased a 60 lb. Manson Supreme and will use as my primary. I purchased a 44 lb Delta as my secondary. I am having a custom built double roller set up built for my bow to carry both anchors while coastal hoping and will stow the Delta when on passage.

The Rocna's seem to only be available stamped as Chinese and since I need to purchase now, the logic presented on the Manson makes allot of sense.

Lord knows I don't want my China built Cheoy Lee to depend on a Chinese anchor!

Fair Winds
Captain Randy

Cheoy Lee's were not built in China.... as far as I know...
thats like saying the US built 'Bendi's' are built in the Confederate States of America....

[Dulcesuenos]

We just tried out our new Manson for the first time. we replaced a 30lb CQR with a 25 lb Manson, rated up to a 35' boat. Ours is 31' and 13k lbs.
The CQR has slipped a couple of times, we mostly anchor in muddy soft sand covered with a thick layer of grass with a crust beneath it.
The Manson worked great both nights, with multiple tide and wind reversals, No slippage.. I do like the CQR but feel it has limitations. We also have a 10lb FX type anchor that wont grab at all in our area. The manson came up clean each time no crud on it. The Slot BTW is great if you are using it on a power boat for rocky bottoms. Not really good idea IMHO to use the slot on a sailboat in an area wit lots of windshifts or tide reversals. But would love it on our powerboat for diving or day use

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

The information is in this other thread.

Hey thanks for the link, interesting,very interesting. Hopefully mine is ok as it doesn't have a cast blade.

[Captain Randy]

Thanks Boatman.....Had an X-wife you remind me of. Of course boat was built in Taiwan, but probably no Chinese there.....lol

[Alecadi]

Originally Posted by beetle

It's a trust issue - I've seen enough poor quality castings (at least in anchors) that I don't trust the Chinese quality control for the single anchor I will have on the bottom that my boat is lying to. It's not a catastrophe if my toothpaste, TV, or cellphone stops working. It's not even that bad if my car stops running - I just pull over to the side of the road and I'm ok. It's a significantly greater problem if the anchor breaks.

Two second-hand anecdotes (which I've heard directly from the people involved): brand new 45 foot trawler, built in China (reasonable build quality) with stainless steel fasteners of hit-or-miss quality - some of the fasteners do not rust while perhaps 40% rust out and have to be replaced; the owner has been chasing bad metal for two years now.

And then there's the prop shaft: the shaft is about 12 feet long and needs to have a specific stiffness to handle the load. The 'builder' (in the US) had a prop shaft made in the states and shipped over to the factory in China, the folks putting the boat together saw how beautiful the shaft was and decided it was way overkill (not to mention expensive) for a boat so they fabricated their own shaft, sold the US shaft, and installed theirs in the boat - all without telling the 'builder' or the buyer. When the boat was in sea trials the bending in the shaft made it clear the material was way under-spec'd and that's when it came out what had happened with the prop shaft.

I try to purchase good quality products for my boat and that often means hunting down products where the builder has a reputation for quality. So far I haven't seen that in cast anchors from China. I'd much rather have a drop-forged anchor (the old adage: 'ever break a hammer?'), rolled/welded, or a cast anchor from a group that has a proven history of quality castings.

Hopefully it will turn out the China castings will be of high quality, and then we'll all be happy to have one - and I haven't seen that happen yet. I believe the problem boils down to convincing the people working directly with the metal that buyers are willing to spend more for good metal and high build quality, even though the product (an anchor, in this case) looks exactly the same as an one built with cheaper materials and lower quality for less money.

- rob/beetle

Rob , not wanting to argue for the sake of just arguing.
I've been in China and worked in the industry there for European engineering companies.
Believe me the steel industry is one of the best you can find in the world. China is moving fast, already in front of Japan soon it will be in front of the USA. Wake up. What you said was PERHAPS true some years ago not anymore.
The Steel industry in China represent HALF the word capacity!!
The number one steel producer in the world is INDIA, not Pitsburgh...

Company like Baosteel have the BEST technologies available in the world, Integrated K-H from Thyssen-Krupp, NSC, Arcelor,
system from SMS, Siemens, even Wean United from the US.. etc etc..

They have among the strictest procedures in production, operation, maintenance, quality control and customer services.

They have ISO 9001, API Logo (USA) and JIS

They provide steel to GM, Ford and Chrysler
Nissan, Fiat, VW, Citroen, Honda etc...

and Home appliance manufacturers, shipbuilding, oil and gas transmission pipes, packaging and stainless steel material...

This is 21st century and they are still learning and expanding.

So if you still don't want to buy made in china...

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by Captain Randy

Thanks Boatman.....Had an X-wife you remind me of.

Tall... Skinny... no Boobs.....????

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Alecadi

Rob , not wanting to argue for the sake of just arguing.
I've been in China and worked in the industry there for European engineering companies.
Believe me the steel industry is one of the best you can find in the world. China is moving fast, already in front of Japan soon it will be in front of the USA. Wake up. What you said was PERHAPS true some years ago not anymore.
The Steel industry in China represent HALF the word capacity!!
The number one steel producer in the world is INDIA, not Pitsburgh...

Company like Baosteel have the BEST technologies available in the world, Integrated K-H from Thyssen-Krupp, NSC, Arcelor,
system from SMS, Siemens, even Wean United from the US.. etc etc..

They have among the strictest procedures in production, operation, maintenance, quality control and customer services.

They have ISO 9001, API Logo (USA) and JIS

They provide steel to GM, Ford and Chrysler
Nissan, Fiat, VW, Citroen, Honda etc...

and Home appliance manufacturers, shipbuilding, oil and gas transmission pipes, packaging and stainless steel material...

This is 21st century and they are still learning and expanding.

So if you still don't want to buy made in china...

Interesting information. So how do you account for the test results published showing low test results on the steel in the Rocna anchors? Doubt it was malfeasance on the part of the "other company".

My engineering does not cover structural steel manufacturing so wild speculation: poor casting process, tempering, factory did not buy the grade as instructed by Rocna? All speculation and uneducated guesses but unless/until we get an answer back from Rocna refuting the test results we will have to assume that the steel in the anchors was substandard, for whatever reason.

[Alecadi]

Originally Posted by skipmac

Interesting information. So how do you account for the test results published showing low test results on the steel in the Rocna anchors? Doubt it was malfeasance on the part of the "other company".

My engineering does not cover structural steel manufacturing so wild speculation: poor casting process, tempering, factory did not buy the grade as instructed by Rocna? All speculation and uneducated guesses but unless/until we get an answer back from Rocna refuting the test results we will have to assume that the steel in the anchors was substandard, for whatever reason.

This I don't know because I don't have in hand the elements to judge in all fairness, but what I know is taht it is not the first time and certainly not the last one that something is broken.. anchors or else.. When the water pump in my yanmar engine broke I didn't blame the japanese and I didn't swear not to buy Japanes good anymore, when the halyard broke I didn't swear not to buy anything made in New England etc... etc..

[skipmac]

Originally Posted by Alecadi

This I don't know because I don't have in hand the elements to judge in all fairness, but what I know is taht it is not the first time and certainly not the last one that something is broken.. anchors or else.. When the water pump in my yanmar engine broke I didn't blame the japanese and I didn't swear not to buy Japanes good anymore, when the halyard broke I didn't swear not to buy anything made in New England etc... etc..

All valid, but this does not appear to be a case of one anchor that was broken but production that is out of spec. No I don't blame Ford when the transmission on my Explorer dies, but when I replace the fourth one in three different year models I have to wonder if there was a design or production problem.

In the case of Rocna the design is fine, but looks like the material in a random sampling was not up to par.

I do have to put in my two cents worth, I deal with international sales and purchasing and have purchased millions of dollars of chemicals from China as well other parts of Asia, Latin America, and Europe. Without a doubt on average the quality of Chinese products is typically the lowest, as is the price. Also, by far the incidence of products out of spec and outright fraud is higher from China.

This, as I have said previously, does not mean that everything from China is bad. In some specific products I buy from China their quality sets the standard for the world, but that is a minority.

I guess I should also note that I have a Rocna 20 and love it.

[Kettlewell]

To be fair to Rocna, a high percentage of other anchors are also made in China these days, including the Lewmars (except for the CQR), which includes the popular Delta anchor. I would guess that most of the knock-off Delta designs, Bruce look alikes, and other plows are Chinese too. So, if one is wary of what these anchors are made of and the construction quality and you are in the USA you are pretty much left with Mansons (NZ), the Spade (Tunisia), Fortress (USA), Kingston (Canada), Danforth (made by Tie Down in Georgia), and the genuine CQR (Scotland). Can we trust Tunisian quality? Not sure where the Ultra is made, but I personally would not want to pay for a SS anchor. Not sure if Davis anchors are made in USA, but the company is based in Washington state. Any I'm forgetting?