Rolling Hitch on Snubber

[Andrew Troup]

Apart from being slightly mistrustful of rolling hitches in an unforgiving application like chain -- in which regard I do admit I felt slightly vindicated when Evans started this thread -- there's another reason for my preference for slings ....


Perhaps it's something people develop particularly in the mountain environment, a sort of veneration for good rope, the amount you have being limited to what you brung...

and the longer the piece, the more inherent value I give it, given you can't really cobble long ropes together from fag ends.

I certainly have a general, and possibly irrational aversion, to using such ropes around unyielding objects under snatch loads.

I happily make up sacrificial slings for use on shore anchors (eg overgrown pitons or screw type, or around trees), ringbolts (especially rusty or scaly ones), even dock cleats if there's a surge.

They're also great for doubling docklines through, if you want to be able to slip from on board. I will happily leave the slings behind like a visiting card, for some deserving person who might recognise their virtues.

What's more, I can be sure my lines won't hang up at an inconvenient moment during the departure sequence, particularly if single handed.

Chafe is NEVER an issue, and if I have to make a rapid exit when the lines were too short for doubling, a sharp knife does the deed in a moment, regardless of load*, without shortening the rope so much as a millimeter.

* (in fact, the more, the better - I just remembered I once had a crewmate standing by a dockcleat with a wickedly sharp carving knife, awaiting the word. I forgot to warn him not to bring the blade anywhere near the line until we were committed to go.

So... he made the mistake of nervously touching it to the line, a nice piece of 20mm 3-strand Dacron, during a gust from abeam which was making it sing like a G-string. The strand he touched parted the instant he touched it - luckily the gust had spent itself, and the other two held until we were ready to do without that line.)

The cost of a bit of webbing and the time taken to make up a handful of slings is minimal, whereas I hate shortening long lines due to unnecessary damage - and with dock and shore lines, the attachment may not be at the end of the line.

I realise that frugality has morphed during my lifetime from a virtue to a vice, and I can understand people who share my views feeling somewhat isolated on a forum like this.

But it can be a handy habit, I reckon, to anyone who might find themselves away from civilisation for extended periods.

[nigel1]

Originally Posted by estarzinger

Perhaps I should learn to tie an icicle hitch with instructions! When tying up the drogue bridle I can do it in the cockpit with a knot book open in front of me. But I need to do the snubber knot 'from memory' as a book is not going to last long on the foredeck. There is something that is very unintuitive for me about the icicle and I have never managed to (or had any real reason to) 'memorize' it.

Good description here.
In the application it is being used in this instance, they strip out the core and use the sheave only, making it more like a flat strop.
South Wales Marine The Amazing Icicle Hitch.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup

Errrmmm ... perhaps that's because we're endeavouring to brainstorm solutions to the specific problem outlined in the OP

(A problem you suggest "doesn't exist" ????

Despite Evans' "twenty seven eight-by-ten colour glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of each one explaining what each one was to be used as evidence....)

Evan's problem is very simple - an inelastic old double-braid polyester rope broken by snatch loads. Otherwise he did everything right. He did not have any problem with the knot untying, or with tying it, or anything else. All he needs is a nice, stretchy, nylon rope of correct length and diameter, and everything will be fine.

[Rakuflames]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

Take a look at the author of that article -- it's Evans!

Evans -- someone here?

[nigel1]

Originally Posted by Rakuflames

Evans -- someone here?

Small clue here Raku
Cruisers & Sailing Forums - View Profile: estarzinger

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Andrew Troup

Apart from being slightly mistrustful of rolling hitches in an unforgiving application like chain -- in which regard I do admit I felt slightly vindicated when Evans started this thread -- there's another reason for my preference for slings ....


Perhaps it's something people develop particularly in the mountain environment, a sort of veneration for good rope, the amount you have being limited to what you brung...

and the longer the piece, the more inherent value I give it, given you can't really cobble long ropes together from fag ends.

I certainly have a general, and possibly irrational aversion, to using such ropes around unyielding objects under snatch loads.

I happily make up sacrificial slings for use on shore anchors (eg overgrown pitons or screw type, or around trees), ringbolts (especially rusty or scaly ones), even dock cleats if there's a surge.

They're also great for doubling docklines through, if you want to be able to slip from on board. I will happily leave the slings behind like a visiting card, for some deserving person who might recognise their virtues.

What's more, I can be sure my lines won't hang up at an inconvenient moment during the departure sequence, particularly if single handed.

Chafe is NEVER an issue, and if I have to make a rapid exit when the lines were too short for doubling, a sharp knife does the deed in a moment, regardless of load*, without shortening the rope so much as a millimeter.

* (in fact, the more, the better - I just remembered I once had a crewmate standing by a dockcleat with a wickedly sharp carving knife, awaiting the word. I forgot to warn him not to bring the blade anywhere near the line until we were committed to go.

So... he made the mistake of nervously touching it to the line, a nice piece of 20mm 3-strand Dacron, during a gust from abeam which was making it sing like a G-string. The strand he touched parted the instant he touched it - luckily the gust had spent itself, and the other two held until we were ready to do without that line.)

The cost of a bit of webbing and the time taken to make up a handful of slings is minimal, whereas I hate shortening long lines due to unnecessary damage - and with dock and shore lines, the attachment may not be at the end of the line.

I realise that frugality has morphed during my lifetime from a virtue to a vice, and I can understand people who share my views feeling somewhat isolated on a forum like this.

But it can be a handy habit, I reckon, to anyone who might find themselves away from civilisation for extended periods.

Using a sling is undoubtedly good practice, and even if I am right that it is overkill in this application, if it helps you sleep at anchor, then it is very well worth it (spoken by a person who formed a firm habit of not sleeping at anchor due to more than a decade of CQR usage ).


But keep in mind that using a sling, or a different knot, will not solve Evans' particular problem. An inelastic snubber will, first of all, not snub anything, thus being fundamentally unfit for purpose, and secondly, will be broken one way or another by those snatch loads which it fails to snub.


By the way, another really important point in the general topic is belaying the chain. I am constantly amazed at the number of cruisers who lovingly tie on a snubber and leave it at that, with nothing else holding the chain besides the windlass. This is dangerous!! The snubber, if it is correctly sized and "tuned", will be considerably weaker than the rest of the rode -- there's no way around that. And nylon, for all of its beautiful elastic properties, is seriously weakened by being wet, and will build up internal heat when it is doing a lot of snubbing. Snubbers do break -- there's no way around it. They will break 20 times less off if they are properly elastic and properly sized, but they are still much weaker than the rest of the rode. When, not if, your snubber breaks, your chain had better be belayed by something roughly as strong as the rest of your anchoring system, which means several times stronger than your broken snubber was.

I do have a chain hook on board -- one which looks just like Nick's. I don't use it with my snubbers for the reasons stated. It is shackled -- with sturdy Wichard forged shackles -- to a length of heavy stainless chain which is shackled to my inner forestay chain plate, and I take all load off my windlass with it. This is only one of many good ways to do this, but one way or another, your chain needs to be attached to your boat in a strong manner.

[jim_thomsen]

I have to agree with Jedi & Jim Cate... I have found the simple hook works great. It's easy to hook on and easy to remove.
Thinwater.. regarding climbing ropes. I have not found any use for them, EXCEPT they seem to be the very best snubber line I have used. I have been using 11mm climbing ropes for the snubber for the past 5 years (and only because Evans told me to!)
I still own a few climbing ropes from my mountaineering days, but when I suggested this use to another cruiser he put up an ad in a local California mountaineering store, offering to buy old climbing ropes, even if they have a cut in them. Climbers thought he was crazy, but he bought 2 50 meter ropes for $20 each. Besides probably being the best snubber material it could be the cheapest!

[Snowpetrel]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I do have a chain hook on board -- one which looks just like Nick's. I don't use it with my snubbers for the reasons stated. It is shackled -- with sturdy Wichard forged shackles -- to a length of heavy stainless chain which is shackled to my inner forestay chain plate, and I take all load off my windlass with it. This is only one of many good ways to do this, but one way or another, your chain needs to be attached to your boat in a strong manner.

It was always drummed into me that the anchor needed to be able to be slipped quickly in an emergency. On ships we never left the windlass in gear for this reason. So maybe it would be a good idea to have a rope lashing that could be cut to release the chain hook if it all goes pear shaped. But saying that I have never needed something like this, and a cockpit winch could be used to take the load and release the hook if necessary, so maybe it's not relevant these days on yachts.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

It was always drummed into me that the anchor needed to be able to be slipped quickly in an emergency. On ships we never left the windlass in gear for this reason. So maybe it would be a good idea to have a rope lashing that could be cut to release the chain hook if it all goes pear shaped. But saying that I have never needed something like this, and a cockpit winch could be used to take the load and release the hook if necessary, so maybe it's not relevant these days on yachts.

A very good point, and I have clearly not thought enough about it. Thank you.

For me to release the hook some terrible emergency, I would need to activate the windlass, which requires me to put the engine on -- that's no good at all.

So job 1 -- rewire the windlass so it works any time there's power to the windlass. I was about to do that anyway. I suppose I could substitute a loop of Dyneema for one of the shackles to make it even easier.

In order to release the chain, I need a winch handle to release the windlass clutch. Maybe I need to keep a winch handle down there. There's room in the anchor locker for a winch handle pocket. Job 2.

In order to jettison the chain, I need to be able to cut the connection between the bitter end and the eyebolt in the anchor locker. I usually have a knife on me, but it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to keep a spare one down there. Job 3.


Thanks very much for stimulating these valuable thoughts -- you are absolutely right.

[nigel1]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I do have a chain hook on board -- one which looks just like Nick's. I don't use it with my snubbers for the reasons stated. It is shackled -- with sturdy Wichard forged shackles -- to a length of heavy stainless chain which is shackled to my inner forestay chain plate, and I take all load off my windlass with it. This is only one of many good ways to do this, but one way or another, your chain needs to be attached to your boat in a strong manner.

Or use a Pelican Hook or Blake slip instead of the hook, and use the winch handle (which will be in your chain locker) to knock off the Pelican Hook or Blake slip if you need to slip quickly

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by nigel1

Or use a Pelican Hook or Blake slip instead of the hook, and use the winch handle (which will be in your chain locker) to knock off the Pelican Hook or Blake slip if you need to slip quickly

Another excellent idea

See how useful these threads are, even when we've discussed the same thing over and over again for years!

[Dockhead]

I must admit, however, that I had to turn to my Admiralty Manual of Seamanship in order to even know what a Blake Slip is

[s/v Jedi]

Can't say I recognize the practices that I though everybody followed...

1. The rope attaching the bitter end of the chain to a strong point aboard should be long enough so that it appears on deck, between windlass and anchor roller, so that it can be cut right there if needed.

2. If anchor must be slipped in a hurry, there is no unhooking the snubber; no using the windlass to release tension. There is just taking the snubber off the cleat and releasing the windlass clutch. This is why the bitter end of the snubber should not be a spliced loop.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Can't say I recognize the practices that I though everybody followed...

. . .

2. If anchor must be slipped in a hurry, there is no unhooking the snubber; no using the windlass to release tension. There is just taking the snubber off the cleat and releasing the windlass clutch. This is why the bitter end of the snubber should not be a spliced loop.

It's not the snubber we're worrying about releasing -- it's the chain strop or whatever is used to belay the chain ahead of the windlass. I presume you use something like this? Maybe you have a chain lock, which some people use for this purpose? I sure hope you have something besides your snubber between your chain and your windlass . . .

[transmitterdan]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Evan's problem is very simple - an inelastic old double-braid polyester rope broken by snatch loads. Otherwise he did everything right. He did not have any problem with the knot untying, or with tying it, or anything else. All he needs is a nice, stretchy, nylon rope of correct length and diameter, and everything will be fine.

Exactly right! Many people are "afraid" to use the correct snubber because it is small nylon 3-strand. We use New England 1/2" nylon 3-strand snubber on a Valiant 42. Jedi's snubber looks too big but may be right for his boat too. Depending on windage Hawk might want 5/8" nylon but probably not bigger than that. Our 1/2" nylon line breaking strength is more than the chain safe working load. This is a key parameter to consider in choosing a snubber. It should be the smallest line with breaking strength that exceeds the chain's safe working load.

For calm the snubber is 25 feet. For difficult conditions it is 50 feet with another 75 feet snubber behind it as backup. For hurricanes you need multiple anchor points anyway so we are ignoring that scenario in this discussion.

Nylon line will stretch to nearly twice it's normal length before breaking so I never put out enough loop of chain. We set the brake on the windlass somewhat so if the snubber stretches more than the chain loop then more chain will pay out of the windlass but stop when the snubber finally comes up short. Hearing the chain pay out will make me want to go up on deck and check things.

After a serious blow discard the snubber and use a new one. They are cheap and work perfectly.

There is no way I would use high tech climbing line as a snubber as it only serves to defeat the purpose of the snubber. A proper snubber has to stretch...a lot...to do its job.