Sarca Excel

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by JonJo

Noelex - you might shed light on this (as you are there), though your posts seem to suggest that you and we have something in common - we prefer to anchor.

I don't like being tied up in marinas and harbours, so do it very little (the last time was nearly a year ago) but I do Med-moor, tied to rocks etc.
When tied to rocks its occasionally useful to able to release the stern line and go back to free swinging, so I would not use the slot in this situation.

However in a harbour situation snagged anchors are reasonably common so if your were not confident free diving this would be a legitimate use of the slot.

When Med-moored in these situations your stern is only a few feet from a concrete wall, so you need to have a lot of faith in your anchor holding, but with a constant direction of pull there should be no great concerns about using the slot.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I can only put our difference in observation down to the limitations of simulation, involving the more steady pull of tractor, or car winch etc, which I presume is how you are making the observations.

Sadly, or fortuitously, I cannot afford a tractor (and they lack any credibility). However I do confess to having used a car winch (with anchors under water), but also a motor boat and a yacht. The findings are combinations. Tested have been, Spade, Supreme, Excel, Rocna, Ray, Delta, SARCA, Kobra at full size (or full size for me 15kg) and smaller. Excluded Fortress (did not have one at the time) CQR (did not consider it required inclusion). Loads have been measured with load cell, scopes and rodes the same for all.

Yachts in strong tidal rivers do not yaw (personal experience)

Yachts in strong tidal streams do not yaw (personal experience)

Yachts imposed upon by bullets varying in direction by 180 degrees, do not yaw (or not in the manner you suggest). (embedded experience)

Wind over tide, yachts do not yaw - but the loads with a 5 knot tide and a 30 knot wind are 'interesting' (when the wind is one direction and the tide another) (seared experience).

In order to shuffle round the anchor needs a 'gentle' load applied through the 180 degrees so that it has time to react (actually - allowing the seabed time to react). If the load is applied too quickly, wind change is too sudden, then the stress is taken on the shank (whilst waiting for the seabed to 'give'). If the stress is too high, strong pull, too quickly, either the anchor jerks out or the shank bends. In the 180 degree pull - the shank is being stressed in its strongest orientation, the seabed is at its least resistant as the anchor is simply not designed to pull backwards, the anchor gives and sommersaults. The big problem with modern anchors is that their holding capacity (or efficiency) is so high they can remain 'rock solid' but the stress being imposed (at 90 degrees) is, can be, larger than the shank can bear - this is less of an issue with older designs as they pull out (call it drag) before their shanks are unduly stressed.

Yachts in river, or tidal streams, moved placidly from one direction to the other, and turn through 180 degrees. At one point they have a tide of 5 knots in one direction and later a tidal stream of 5 knots in the other (180 degree direction). In between times the anchor is never really loaded at 30 degrees, or 90 degrees, or 150 degrees - because at these angles, the change of tide, there is no load. Tidal rivers are a good example, potential for lots of organic matter. If the anchor moves, it sommersaults (clod of seabed, or river bed, coming with it.

Clarity to the seabed usually means a sand seabed. In rivers it would be very unusual to see 1 metre. So to watch your anchor in full scuba gear in, say, the Mersey (UK) or Hawkesbury (Oz) would mean sitting on the bottom within 1 metre of your anchor as the reverse tide built? Its easier and possibly safer to measure the chain, exactly, define exactly the GPS position and best to set the anchor near something that does not move (like a concrete marker piller.) and/or set a buoy on another anchor (there is no load, it should not move). And in true belt and braces style best set your chartplotter track (as it averages out all the GPS inaccuracies) After, or during, big seas (certainly in Australian waters) it would be unusual to see 3 metres deep. In areas of big, swift, tides it would be unusual to see 1 metre.

I can partially understand why you are based in the Med, seems delightful, no sharks, no life threatening jelly fish, perfect water clarity.

[noelex 77]

It is difficult to observe anchors with strong reversing total currents. It's just not possible to dive or snorkel in any significant current.
However I have seen the anchor before and after a current change on many occasions. Your own backyard The Australian Great Barrier Reef is an area I have spent a good deal of time cruising and the coral channels and large tides create areas of strong current with still reasonable visibility.
When diving I always note the location of bottom landmarks, or make my own by moving a rock so I know if the anchor has moved. Good anchors don't move they rotate.

Anyway am not convinced that reversing currents create any practical difference over a a reversing wind situation.
Even strong currents place very little load on the anchor anyway so they do not trouble modern anchors.

I have now anchored well over 1000 days/nights with my Rocna anchor alone. I have seen it on most occasions, at least before and after strong wind shifts. I have never seen it move more than a few inches when rotating to a new orientation. I cannot believe from my observations it has ever somersaulted.

Even where I am anchored at the moment it has changed orientation through 180 degrees 5 or 6 times. It is still in exactly the same place. (Or it was yesterday )

If you are seeing somersaulting think your simulation does not mirror what happens in the real world. If this simulation is being used to design and test anchors you need to consider retesting perhaps with chain (or more chain) and using a variable, pulsating or jerking load.

BTW I'm very surprised you consider that boats don't yaw at anchor particuarly with bullets. (For those hoping for another gun thread , relax, bullets are strong gusts of wind that typically travel down the lee side of a mountain range and hit the boat suddenly, often from different directions, and with a vertical component.)
If you look at the chain close to the anchor in strong conditions like this it is apparent that there is a variable load at the anchor end.

[LouVul]

Sounds like either outcome would be possible given the right conditions.

I can only assume (was not in the water to witness) my Rocna somersaulted during a strong/immediate 180 degree wind shift in the Chesapeak Bay mud. We dragged, but it reset just as we started the engines (raft of two).

An anchor's ability to reset quickly is a very important design aspect.

[Kettlewell]

Maybe it's buried in the thread somewhere, but is there a USA importer and reseller of Sarca anchors now?

[JonJo]

Noelex,

I tried to qualify my and your use of the word yaw. For a yacht's anchor to move, shuffle round, the yawing or movement needs to be slow. The seabed needs time to give. If the change of orientation is sudden, a bullet from another direction, then the change in direction is simply too sudden for the seabed. If that change is large, thunderstorm, bullet down one valley later opposed by a bullet down another valley the the anchor will be constantly buffeted by loads at different directions. I was trying to differentiate between the development of sudden catastrophic loads and the more benign loads we all experience when at anchor. Because modern anchors are so efficient that load can be imposed on the shank, because nothing gives, and you can either bend the shank or 'snatch' the anchor out (depends on how well its set).

In a normal wind shift, which are seldom 180 degrees anyway, the anchor will shuffle round. If the wind shift is not slow, and you have quoted sudden local Med conditions, then the change of wind direction can be 180 degrees, the seabed has no time to give, the load on the anchor is in the opposite direction to the set direction and the load is applied slightly above the seabed, because the chain has been lifted off the seabed. In such a situation the anchor will sommersault (its no fault of the anchor, it nothing to do with an individual's anchor design). LouVul seems to confirm the real life experiences. And I fully agree - its not a big issue as long as the anchor has an ability to reset (quickly) In clean sand, the conditions under which you dive, we have found most anchors except a CQR will reset, including Bruce clones and a Delta. In denser seabeds only modern anchors re-set easily - as they have sharp toes and present that toe immediately they have been snatched, or sommersaulted. If the yacht is moving slowly they reset in 1m-2m, if the yacht is moving faster - they take a bit longer (on average to re-set). If they have mud in the fluke, they need to dump that mud before they re-set.

Many of Australia's anchorages, on the east coast, are in rivers and currently many of those rivers are full of detritus from the floods (and waiting to catch some unwary yachtsmen with a concave anchor). I recall a friend telling me of a problem he had with a Bruce (big anchor on naval landing craft, he was the LtCom). They could not get the anchor to set. They pulled it up to find a fluke sized coral head stuck in the anchor Which took a long time to remove). He maintained, for what its worth (and I would not normally quote anecdotal info), he has a 35' yacht as well, that Bruce only seemed to really work in the large sizes, I think he said 50 kg or bigger.

[JonJo]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Maybe it's buried in the thread somewhere, but is there a USA importer and reseller of Sarca anchors now?

Cannot answer that specifically, no idea.

A contact from overseas was recounting that Anchor Right are able to sell competitively oversea by mail order (or have been to the UK). Do not know how it works, maybe there is a special deal with Australia Post to support local industry.

You would need to contact them direct, but they contribute to this thread (and forum) - if you wait they might clarify.

[noelex 77]

I will have a stern word to my anchor tomorrow.
All these years it been doing a lethargic shuffle when it should have been somersaulting.
It looks like I have got a lazy anchor.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I will have a stern word to my anchor tomorrow.
All these years it been doing a lethargic shuffle when it should have been somersaulting.
It looks like I have got a lazy anchor.

Perhaps oversize relative to manufacturers recommendation may be a factor ?

[LouVul]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Maybe it's buried in the thread somewhere, but is there a USA importer and reseller of Sarca anchors now?

I inquired a few months ago and my understanding is no US reseller as yet. Suggest talking to them directly regarding price and shipment.

Originally Posted by downunder

Perhaps oversize relative to manufacturers recommendation may be a factor ?

More than likely and probably a good reason to go big(ger).

[LouVul]

Many thanks Cotemar. The Mantus is a worthy design.

[downunder]

Originally Posted by LouVul

I inquired a few months ago and my understanding is no US reseller as yet. Suggest talking to them directly regarding price and shipment.



More than likely and probably a good reason to go big(ger).

Agreed. I like bigger.

[Cherp]

Got one. Our boat id 39 feet, which is the top of the range for one size and bottom for another. So we went for the size for the next range. It is 22kgs. Fitted our roller fine. Been sailing where the water is exceptionally clear. Watched it. It goes in deep straight away. Great.

[GMac]

Originally Posted by Snowpetrel

I doubt If a more multibottom next gen anchor, no matter how good can match a purpose designed "one bottom" type in it's favorite grounds. If it can come reasonably close that is good enough for me.

I totally agree with you on that. Having area specific gear is common and obviously for a good reason, like it works best. The problem is if you go elsewhere and forget to swap.

Interesting read and man can you guys go hard when you want, it's funny stuff. Big brave shoulders needed to be a Mod these days I see

For us the end users are the only people who count and the people whose opinions we regard the highest. We do gently question boaters to suss just how much they do actually know and the techniques they use so weirdos, and there are a fair few of those out there, get weeded out. Those people are continuing to talk about only a couple of anchors, the Excel certainly is one high, if not topping, that very small list.

Oversizing the newer designed anchors isn't required anymore, in fact downsizing some is the smarter option. By oversizing the new ones all you are doing is wasting money and making mates of companies like mine and winch makers. Replacing oversized anchors people thought was smart but then found they couldn't get back is good business for us as it is the winch guys fixing the winches trashed in the failed retrieval. If it makes you happy go for it but more often that not it's just not needed.

From what I understand there will be a US stockist soon. Strangely, and I hope he doesn't mind me saying this out loud, Rex Mr Sarca is more interested in making a top quality product from both the manufacturing and performance side of things than he seems to be about selling them. I do know for a fact he is balls to the wall busy, so much so his most favourite country in the world NZ*, is having to wait to get more. One thing I have learnt is Rex will not compromise quality just to shut someone up, even me and that's often a big ask as I can annoy most people pretty easily


* - OK, I may have just made that bit about NZ up

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

Concave is a good thing. It stops the nasty plowing.
The horses would stop if they had to pull a Concave anchor

Super Sarca is a nice looking anchor and looks to be a bit flatter, so looks to be a better design, not just a knock off of the old Plow design.

The only gripe I have with any anchor that has that long slot on it is that no one really uses that slot, so why weaken the shank with that thing.

They are not the same to me, I am an Engineering Blacksmith, DLI Welder, these long slotted shanks are made of Bissaloy.

Bissaloy is used on the leading edge of all earth moving equiptment, It does not bend, twist or wear out,

It takes the point off a Carbide scriber, So I have to use French chalk to mark it out,

You can only cut it with an oxy acetylene torch or Plasma cutter,
You can not drill it,

So the strenght is there, you just cant see it, Or even know its there,

It is not just a piece of steel, or metal to most people that dont know,