Sarca "Excels"

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by SailingMum

thanks, that rings true. another place it would slowly work back without stopping (backing down, in reverse) was in soft mud off a busy port that had been heavily anchored in. Perhaps just a bit too soupy.

i never took my old rocna to the tropics so not sure how it would have gone with coral rubble (although seriously stress tested it otherwise). What would you see working better in softer substrates?

Perhaps an email to Rex at anchorite seeking advice and/or comment would be a worthwhile exercise. Possibly more constructive than a flock of ''experts'' on the internet. As a happy excell owner I would be interested as well.

[BigBeakie]

"The Excel was amply sized (around 150lb) and scope was plenty."

Wow! A 150lb Excel dragging is highly unusual from what I have heard from the commercial fishing boats I've spoken to that use the Excel. They are big, heavy boats that get into big blows. Several also said they commonly have to drive the anchor out because it buries so deep.

SailingMum what boat do you have and what is her displacement?

[groundtackle]

We can only speculate that the bottom conditions where SailingMum had her experience were very low density poor holding material. Any new gen anchor of similar size would have fared no better under these circumstances. As you will have read many times, a second anchor for low density bottoms and one with a larger surface area i.e. a Fortress or similar product may be more appropriate. While no anchor is ideal for all conditions however for most bottom states the Excel is a very well proven anchor with some clear advantages of competing products such as; its ability to maintain proper orientation and continue to dive until it finds higher density better holding substrate. In fact these two properties make it superior to others even in ooze except in situations where the ooze is so deep or the scope is not sufficient to allow it to reach a more compacted better holding material. When these circumstances arise, a Fortress or similarly designed anchor will be better.
It’s imperative when anchoring to test the bottom and make sure your anchor is actually holding. If you have difficulty or concerns about how well set you are then either let out more scope to allow the Excel to dive deeper to find firmer ground, move to better holding area or consider deploying a Fortress.
We communicated with Rex and he concurs with our comments his response was:
“To offer advice to improve anchoring in this substrate type I would need to revisit the boat size and weight, the anchor may be borderline, to solve a problem like this the customer needs to talk to the manufacturer. If we could not satisfy the customers’ expectations he would receive a refund.”
It would be great if Sailormum would chime back in with some of that technical information.

Nick and Chris

[groundtackle]

I need to qualify a part of my previous comment to say that a customer would receive a refund under any reasonable circumstances and within reasonable time frame. We (and Rex) take customer satisfaction very seriously and would go to considerable length to ensure they are satisfied. To this end I encourage SailingMum or for that matter any unhappy Excel owner to contact Rex directly. He's a very approachable person and likely knows more about anchors and anchoring than anyone.
Nick

[SailingMum]

Hi Nick

Since you ask for my comment, I will describe what happened. I can't remember the exact anchor size, but I remember that it was much bigger than the recommended size for the boat. I've sailed in the subantarctic, so I always choose a very big anchor.

I anchor with great care, letting it dig in slowly and reversing on it until I am sure it is holding. I set a lot of scope. I like to do 5:1 when possible. I use an all-chain anchor rode. I check the anchor regularly and always check if conditions change. My ex and our oldest son would often dive on it. I have sat up many nights on anchor watch, because I am a very cautious sailor.

Our Rocna never dragged, despite being used in high latitudes with strong winds and challenging conditions. Over more than a year of us sleeping at anchor almost every night while living aboard, our Excel dragged a few different times in different harbours. As I said to you in a private message, sometimes we were the only boat in the anchorage that dragged. And we always anchored with great care.

I don't really want to start debating this subject, but I felt that I needed to describe what happened. I'm sure everybody has different experiences with anchors and everybody drags some day. I have dragged with every anchor I've ever owned, except the Rocna.

PS I've just looked it up and it was a #13 Excel (which I think is 63kg) for a very light 60 foot monohull. So yeah, it was a big anchor.

[JPA Cate]

There was a technical problem. Post #95, above, was posted by the real SailingMum. The other posts, #'s 83, 86, and 90, were posted by someone else who had used her account without her permission. That situation has changed, now, and she is who she says she is.

Beware of identity theft, everyone.

Ann, aka JPA Cate, moderator

[groundtackle]

Thanks for coming back Sailormum, It is obvious by all reports that new gen anchors have certainly improved anchor performance. Reports like yours will ensure the debate goes on, why you had some issues with the Excel, keeping in mind the fact that you stated you had never used your Rocna in those substrates we can only speculate. We have heard quite the opposite from other posters on this forum and others that have changed from their previous anchors (Rocna in some cases) to an Excel with stellar performance solving their dragging problems as well as other issues.

So I suppose anchor debates will remain alive and well.

Rex, Nick, Chris and John

[malbert73]

I agree with above. Next gen anchors are so much better. I had poor experiences with rocna and fantastic with mantus. If an excel had been easily available on east coast of US at the time I changed to mantus I may have tried it. Different substrates challenge anchors differently

[Factor]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

The small surface area of this type of anchor together with the relatively low resistance of the convex design causes the anchor to very slowly drag backwards without setting any deeper. Because the drag is slow it often goes unnoticed by the skipper, especially if stronger wind dies away..

You suggesting that all convex diving anchors behave identically? I know of two instances of drag with the excel, the one above and one of 44Cs friends. I know of thousands (literally) of owners who have never dragged, it would suggest a highly unusual set of circumstances have to come together.

I still reckon Rex's dog bit you when your where a kid, only explanation for continuing to have such and strong and committed bias against an anchor you have never used.

[Factor]

Originally Posted by malbert73

I agree with above. Next gen anchors are so much better. I had poor experiences with rocna and fantastic with mantus. If an excel had been easily available on east coast of US at the time I changed to mantus I may have tried it. Different substrates challenge anchors differently

I thought the Mantus and Rocna were both New Gen, and both roll bar scoop anchors? Perhaps not all anchors of a specific Genre behave the same?

[Factor]

Two things:

Originally Posted by SailingMum

for a very light 60 foot monohull. .

24 tonnes, I suppose very light is a matter of perspective. and remember these fine words spoken by a fine person about disregarding anchor tests and reports

......However, so too should anecdotal claims, including mine!

[44'cruisingcat]

Originally Posted by Factor

You suggesting that all convex diving anchors behave identically? I know of two instances of drag with the excel, the one above and one of 44Cs friends. .

Well, two of my friends. One on three occasions. And one time when the only two boats in a busy anchorage to drag had excels.

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by Factor

I thought the Mantus and Rocna were both New Gen, and both roll bar scoop anchors? Perhaps not all anchors of a specific Genre behave the same?

Yes true on both. I think in softer substrates the rocna’s smaller rollbar doesn’t always promote upright setting. Several times on chesapeake I had initial failure to set with rocna. Once it failed to reset on windshift.
Never had the issue with the mantus. Wide rollbar may be reason

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Factor

You suggesting that all convex diving anchors behave identically?

I don't think anyone has ever suggested all convex anchors are the same, but the physical characteristics mean that anchors with a similar design share many characteristics in common.

Anchors are quite simple lumps of metal, but the above is true for even much more complex designs. For example all catamarans are not the same but share many characteristics that differ them from monohulls. The wide beam and lack of ballast means cruising catamarans have very different living spaces and stability than similar monohulls. So it would be silly to suggest all catamarans are the same, but it would be naive to think there are not fundamental differences compared to monohulls, which are inherent in design choices.

The convex plow anchors require a reasonably large amount of ballast to enable them to adopt the correct setting position. This gives them a smaller blade area than some of other anchor designs, and together with the lower resistance of the convex shaped fluke (compared to a flat or concave shaped fluke) means they are more vulnerable to the sort of slow dragging incident that Sailing Mum has described occurring.

These are fundamental design characteristics that exist no matter what the anchor marketing departments pretend to be true.

Originally Posted by Factor

I still reckon Rex's dog bit you when your where a kid, only explanation for continuing to have such and strong and committed bias against an anchor you have never used.

I don't normally respond to personal attacks but that is just rude. I have gone to great lengths such as paying for all my anchors even when companies have offered them at no charge, to ensure I can offer an unbiased opinion.

[BigBeakie]

An observation for what its worth, is that both accounts of dragging by an Excel stated to the effect that only the Excel dragged among "several" ( 2, 12, 22 boats?) boats in the same anchorage, which gives the impression that the Excel is the worst performing anchor, presumably of "serveral" different types/brands.

I asked myself "Really?" From my research on anchors, the Excel has a rating of Super High Holding performance, as tested by an independent testing agency, "Robertsons" in Australia. I also heard accounts, directly from the crew, of commercial fishing boats that have tried several different anchors and settled on an Excel, and stuck with it. So, these stories don't jive with my research. Now, in deep soft mud I think the Excel will struggle with staying put. But a Delta, CQR, Rocna, Mantus, Bruce etc. won't??? Only the Excel will drag? Really?




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