Sea Anchors and Drogues

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I munched this idea countless times too. Never tried.

My mindset, at now:

- deploy an anchor and some chain (say 100'),
- tie a bunch of big fenders onto the chain at this point,
- deploy this device with some 200' of anchor rope.

I will make a drawing.

What do you think?

b.

Wow! Well artistically... spectacular! I've never been able to draw with a computer mouse! But my only question is, is that 200' from the boat to the fenders? Is that enough? Those waves seem a little close together....nice though! As far as dragging the rode and anchor... is that enough resistance to hold the boat from falling back?

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Wow! Well artistically... spectacular! I've never been able to draw with a computer mouse! But my only question is, is that 200' from the boat to the fenders? Is that enough? Those waves seem a little close together....nice though! As far as dragging the rode and anchor... is that enough resistance to hold the boat from falling back?

It's been done, like this.


The reasons, as I posted earlier, was for steering, not storms.

Personally, a Delta drogue would have been a lot easier. But this worked.

Rudder failure and 1,500 miles to sail – Yachting World

[Dirk Williams]

Barnickel, that pic is how I envision the set up, fatty says he deploys this set up, often using multiple fenders for the purposes stated. Thank you for the pic, I see this operational in my mind.

In fact I've now read that many will just deploy their entire fender set up about 300/400 m behind the boat.

Thanks guys. I'm learning, thank you to the oP for bringing this to light.

DW

[Panope]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

I munched this idea countless times too. Never tried.

My mindset, at now:

- deploy an anchor and some chain (say 100'),
- tie a bunch of big fenders onto the chain at this point,
- deploy this device with some 200' of anchor rope.

I will make a drawing.

What do you think?

b.

Nice drawing.

But I was thinking of attaching the parachute directly to the anchor. I'm kind of "over anchored" with two complete rodes consisting of chain/nylon/chain (last bit of chain at bitter end to eliminate chafe). One of the rodes has 350 feet of nylon in the middle - should provide lots of stretch.

Perhaps it would be folly to have the anchor involved? If the chute came out of the water after the nylon had stretched considerably, the whole mess could be violently yanked causing a tangled mess of anchor and chute.

Steve

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Don C L

Wow! Well artistically... spectacular! I've never been able to draw with a computer mouse! But my only question is, is that 200' from the boat to the fenders? Is that enough? Those waves seem a little close together....nice though! As far as dragging the rode and anchor... is that enough resistance to hold the boat from falling back?

Yep.

200' will not be enough.

Not sure about the drag either. Possibly not enough.

All good questions.

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by thinwater

It's been done, like this. (...)

OK.

So this can be deployed as a drogue.

How about a mod to deploy it as a sea anchor?

b.

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Panope

Nice drawing.

But I was thinking of attaching the parachute directly to the anchor. I'm kind of "over anchored" with two complete rodes consisting of chain/nylon/chain (last bit of chain at bitter end to eliminate chafe). One of the rodes has 350 feet of nylon in the middle - should provide lots of stretch.

Perhaps it would be folly to have the anchor involved? If the chute came out of the water after the nylon had stretched considerably, the whole mess could be violently yanked causing a tangled mess of anchor and chute.

Steve

Good question. I think too much weight between you and the anchor might add to the anchor collapsing temporarily. If you get hit by a wave at this point, nothing holds you from rolling away with the wave.

But these are just my thoughts from my armchair. I have never deployed such a test from my boat.

Some amount of chain will be a benefit - to keep the chute riding below the waves. So the question is really - how much of it.

Probably some answers from Fiorentino and the guys. They used to run a fine database.

b.

[powsmias]

Originally Posted by Sevi

Hey All-

Does anyone have any experience or strong opinions regarding the necessity and use for sea anchors and/or drogue chutes? I'm planning on leaving in approximately 2 months for a five year circumnavigation.

Thanks in advance for your responses and help.

I just picked up a jordan series and impressed with all i got.. might wanna read reports on jordan vs chutes.. some good stuff out there on it all.. all the best

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by barnakiel

Good question. I think too much weight between you and the anchor might add to the anchor collapsing temporarily. If you get hit by a wave at this point, nothing holds you from rolling away with the wave.

But these are just my thoughts from my armchair. I have never deployed such a test from my boat.

Some amount of chain will be a benefit - to keep the chute riding below the waves. So the question is really - how much of it.

Probably some answers from Fiorentino and the guys. They used to run a fine database.

b.

Parachutes work best if you got a steady wind and regular sea swells. Any cross cutting wave action will foul the chute; same with intermittent winds or sharply veering winds. Need to have swivels at both ends to prevent fouling. Not really practical for extreme storm conditions. Lots of gear, lots of potential for fouling, and a big risk for whomever has to deploy the mess.

[thinwater]

I did a bunch of instrumented testing of many popular drogue devices, up to near gale conditions, for Practical Sailor (one article published, others pending). The bottom line is that if you think you want one for speed control or steering, buy one. I also experimented with warps and junk, and IMHO, I wouldn't want to be fooling around in a blow.

Go out in 30-40 knots and play with warps. Does it slow you enough (maybe)? Can you steer with it (no)? Then play with a junk trail. Obviously, it has been proven to work. But would you really want to be monkeying around with all that in a storm or when your rudder just jammed? I doubt it. If you are really serious, buy 2 and learn to rig them in tandem. (BTW, this is very different from tandem ground anchors, which does not work--more like the JSD.)

(You can see a Seabrake in the dinghy and a Delta Drogue on deck. I also had a cone and chute.)


After bending a rudder, I carry a drogue and I have practiced steering with one. I know it works and I know how to deploy it for steering and for speed limitation (they are different).

http://www.practical-sailor.com/issu...e_12074-1.html

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by reed1v

Of course, why not just go to the best source of information, the bible of storm sailing? K Adlar Coles' Heavy Weather Sailing.

Just? Sometimes a single source is correct, but over time details and common facts vary, and there are developments and improvements occurring constantly, and they can be additive over time. Go to all three (the others named were "Fatty"Goodlander and the Pardey couple and there are many others not named). Aside from my own opinions formed from my own experience and peculiar to my own situation, learning from a variety of sources is of inestimable value.

Just as an example, oil has been used with great success in the past, but it is now almost unthinkable because of environmental considerations, but in a desperate state I'd think about it from reading (and maybe conversations in the distant past), not from any personal experience or any source that immediately comes to mind.

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by buzzstar

Just? Sometimes a single source is correct, but over time details and common facts vary, and there are developments and improvements occurring constantly, and they can be additive over time. Go to all three (the others named were "Fatty"Goodlander and the Pardey couple and there are many others not named). Aside from my own opinions formed from my own experience and peculiar to my own situation, learning from a variety of sources is of inestimable value.

Just as an example, oil has been used with great success in the past, but it is now almost unthinkable because of environmental considerations, but in a desperate state I'd think about it from reading (and maybe conversations in the distant past), not from any personal experience or any source that immediately comes to mind.

For small boats, its FISH oil, not motor oil. Good grief. You want oil that will not clump up in balls or glom together. Fish oil in the head, pumped out slowly. The oil will attach to the hull and leave an extremely thin slick to weather. Its purpose is to reduce the likelihood of breaking seas on top of your boat. It will not reduce waves. It will help keep the speed of the top part of the wave in sync with the rest of the wave. In very confused and steep seas works well. Doubt if the ocean will feel bad about fish oil.

[reed1v]

Originally Posted by thinwater

I did a bunch of instrumented testing of many popular drogue devices, up to near gale conditions, for Practical Sailor (one article published, others pending). The bottom line is that if you think you want one for speed control or steering, buy one. I also experimented with warps and junk, and IMHO, I wouldn't want to be fooling around in a blow.

Go out in 30-40 knots and play with warps. Does it slow you enough (maybe)? Can you steer with it (no)? Then play with a junk trail. Obviously, it has been proven to work. But would you really want to be monkeying around with all that in a storm or when your rudder just jammed? I doubt it. If you are really serious, buy 2 and learn to rig them in tandem. (BTW, this is very different from tandem ground anchors, which does not work--more like the JSD.)

(You can see a Seabrake in the dinghy and a Delta Drogue on deck. I also had a cone and chute.)


After bending a rudder, I carry a drogue and I have practiced steering with one. I know it works and I know how to deploy it for steering and for speed limitation (they are different).

How Much Drag is in a Drogue? - Practical Sailor Print Edition Article

Better to have two sets of emergency rudders that can be deployed off the stern rather than a drogue that will just slow you down and provide only moderate steerage. Some wind vanes can also be used as emergency rudders.

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by reed1v

Better to have two sets of emergency rudders that can be deployed off the stern rather than a drogue that will just slow you down and provide only moderate steerage. Some wind vanes can also be used as emergency rudders.

a. Have you ever steered with drogues, properly rigged to outboard turning blocks? I can sail most courses, even to windward. It is a myth that they only slow or provide very limited steerage. Any direction with a functioning engine.

b. I carry 2 permanent rudders at all times.

c. A drogue will be awfully damn handy while your trying to rig that rudder, stabilizing the boat. A boat that is 100% out of control in a storm is not a lot of fun to work on.

[buzzstar]

Originally Posted by reed1v

For small boats, its FISH oil, not motor oil. Good grief. You want oil that will not clump up in balls or glom together. Fish oil in the head, pumped out slowly. The oil will attach to the hull and leave an extremely thin slick to weather. Its purpose is to reduce the likelihood of breaking seas on top of your boat. It will not reduce waves. It will help keep the speed of the top part of the wave in sync with the rest of the wave. In very confused and steep seas works well. Doubt if the ocean will feel bad about fish oil.

I would guess either will work, but for me I swallow fish oil and do not carry it except in gel cap form. I do have lots of motor oil and similar. If push came to shove, I'd even use whale oil if I had it. I think the balls and glom you mention are a characteristic of (heavier?) crude oil (e.g. Exxon Valdez and Horizon blowout, or naturally at the La Brea Tar Pits and Carpinteria, CA) but not so much refined products (although I have not experimented with types or used any method of dispersion). BTW, when fish oil is needed is it not usually far too late to catch and squeeze them?