Side loading on Ultra Swivel (or swivels in general)

[Jimmyhenry]

After 40 years cruising I have still yet to be convinced of why you would use a swivel.
Maybe someone in this forum has a good reason.
But before leaping into print, stop and think it through carefully.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Jimmyhenry

After 40 years cruising I have still yet to be convinced of why you would use a swivel.
Maybe someone in this forum has a good reason.
But before leaping into print, stop and think it through carefully.

Simply remove it and see how it works. It depends on cruising area, currents, tides etc.

[slug]

Originally Posted by Jimmyhenry

After 40 years cruising I have still yet to be convinced of why you would use a swivel.
Maybe someone in this forum has a good reason.
But before leaping into print, stop and think it through carefully.

When an anchor surfaces it is flukes forward and must be rotated 180 degrees before you can seat it in the stem fitting

With a swivel , you simply click the boat into reverse , the anchor rotates 180 degrees to fluke aft position in the water flow , then you press the button and house the anchor in the stem fitting

With out a swivel this maneuver is troublesome

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by slug

When an anchor surfaces it is flukes forward and must be rotated 180 degrees before you can seat it in the stem fitting

Not on my boat, Slug... quite the contrary. WithOUT a swivel, the groove in the roller keeps the anchor in the proper orientation for recovery 99% of the time. WITH a swivel, your statement is correct as it will align with the flow.

With a swivel , you simply click the boat into reverse , the anchor rotates 180 degrees to fluke aft position in the water flow , then you press the button and house the anchor in the stem fitting

Ahhh, the ol' "click it into reverse" ploy. Sometimes not so convenient, Slug, and always a nuisance. Far better if you can continue in your forward direction and not have to dick around maneuvering in reverse... something many yachts don't do well.



With out a swivel this maneuver is troublesome

Jim.....

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Muaddib1116

. . .In the case of the shackle, I suspect the greater risk, in general, is prying the shackle bow apart. The shackle is not really designed for this type of load and the shackle only adds an inch or two to the effective shank length. Perhaps there are shackle styles that have very robust pin securement systems that can resist this type of prying force. I'm not sure I would trust the type that just threads into one side of the bow.. . .

Do not use a shackle like that! That's just wrong.

If you can't get the bow part of the shackle through the hole in the anchor shank, then maybe you need a different anchor. I've never had an issue with this with any of the maybe dozen different anchors my dad and I have used in 40-odd years of cruising.

[Muaddib1116]

Yes, if you read my entire post, I specified various scenarios, one with an anchor with a slotted anchor shank hole and one with a circular anchor shank hole. I was pointing out that this is a less than ideal scenario with a circular hole, because it forces this attachment method.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Jimmyhenry

After 40 years cruising I have still yet to be convinced of why you would use a swivel.
Maybe someone in this forum has a good reason.
But before leaping into print, stop and think it through carefully.

Well, it depends on the anchor. I have spent 90% of my cruising life without a swivel, but for a few years I had a 121 pound Rocna which had a strong tendency to come up backwards -- because of the way it was balanced (no ballast in the fluke; roll bar adding weight above). I added a big Kong swivel and that made it possible to horse the anchor around with a boathook so I could get it into the bow roller.


But with other anchors, including Deltas, and various Spade anchors I've had, because of the good balance made by lead ballast, a swivel is entirely unnecessary. I presume the Ultra will be the same, as it appears to be balanced similarly.



As Jim Cate has recounted, I have always had good luck with grooved bronze rollers, which do keep the chain straight.

[slug]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Jim.....

You alway hoist the last few meters of anchor when the boat is in reverse , anchor dragging thru the waters

The sea grass, monofilament fishing line and any other junk on the anchor then stays in front of the boat ....not sucked into your sea strainer or wrapped around your prop and shaft seals

I’m well aware of anchor roller design

Anchor point flukes forward when hung

[opusnz]

In almost 40 years of anchoring on my and others boats, I have never used an anchor swivel and never felt the need to use one. Some of them are extremely expensive. I can see how the manufacturers love to make them and stores love to sell them but why spend money and add something that could possibly fail for no reason?

If the anchor comes up on the roller upside down, just drop it down and bring it up again until it is straight. Keep it simple.

[slug]

Originally Posted by opusnz

In almost 40 years of anchoring on my and others boats, I have never used an anchor swivel and never felt the need to use one. Some of them are extremely expensive. I can see how the manufacturers love to make them and stores love to sell them but why spend money and add something that could possibly fail for no reason?

If the anchor comes up on the roller upside down, just drop it down and bring it up again until it is straight. Keep it simple.

Not so easy when using 50 kg plus anchors

[opusnz]

Could be but if you have a big enough anchor winch, why would the weight really matter? My anchor is about 25kg. I have been on other boats with much bigger anchors and never recall having any troubles because we didn't have a swivel.

I normally don't even need to touch my anchor but in worst case I can let enough chain out to twist the chain until the anchor is straight or spin it with a boat hook. Either way, it is not so much trouble that I would ever want to add the expense or risk of a swivel.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by slug

You alway hoist the last few meters of anchor when the boat is in reverse , anchor dragging thru the waters

No, I do not do this nor do I intend to do so

The sea grass, monofilament fishing line and any other junk on the anchor then stays in front of the boat ....not sucked into your sea strainer or wrapped around your prop and shaft seals

Well, you must just be unlucky, Slug, for this has never once happened to me

I’m well aware of anchor roller design

If the one that you show is what you think is best, think again. There should be a second shoulder on each side of the groove, spaced just greater than the width of a link. Keeps the chain from twisting as it rolls over the roller.

Anchor point flukes forward when hung

Why does that happen on your boat? Doesn't on mine. Mine comes up properly oriented to rise over the roller.

And BTW you never seem willing to tell us what boat you own that all these things happen on. Care to tell us now?

Jim...

[Michael Cobbe]

We were in a bay in Greece when there was was a wind reversal three charter boats were washed ashore they all had swivels.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Michael Cobbe

We were in a bay in Greece when there was was a wind reversal three charter boats were washed ashore they all had swivels.

Three boats once sailed to Portugal. They all had swivels.

In your example (and mine), nothing proves causality.

-Chris

[Ultra Marine West]

I see some members are happy to use their shackles for more than 40 years, so they think that the anchor manufacturers want to sell them swivels just to make some extra money, etc.

Besides the unnecessary sideload discussions about the swivels. I would like to make where we stand with the ULTRA Anchor clear about the “swivels and shackles” for all of you.

Please watch that video first.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGE9364j9uc

The first thing I have to note is that the anchor holding powers with new generation anchors significantly increased, and we claim that it made a peak with the ULTRA Anchor. Here in that forum, we intensively discussed that even the Lloyd holding power test requirements became a “low bar” for new generation anchors. https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...-230818-6.html

Forty years ago, there was no new generation anchor available, so that made a change in time about the importance of the breaking loads of that anchor chain connections.

As the manufacturer of the ULTRA Anchor, we warn our customers to use a more reliable connection than the chain with the ULTRA not to add a failure point. That can be a swivel or a shackle.
If you know that the breaking load of your shackle is more than your anchor chain, it is totally fine to use it with your ULTRA Anchor.

-So the first thing we worry about is the security of the anchor chain connection.

The second of all, neither the swivels nor shackles have positive or negative effects in the anchor performances. The only exception here would be using a big connection such as a Mantus Swivel with a new generation anchor without a roll bar, which can dig in deeper as much as you pull like the ULTRA. In that case, the swivel might create extra resistance against the anchor digging into the sea bottom. However, it is totaly fine to use the Mantus Swivel with an anchor with a roll bar or with any old generation anchors as they already cannot burry their shanks into the sea bottoms.

-We designed the ULTRA to work better with swivels, mainly not to let users experience upside-down anchor recoveries. Modern boat designs are now using mostly straight bows, or the underdeck anchor application is becoming popular, as well. Upside down anchor recovery is a huge problem for these boats.

I see that some boats using an anchor with a shackle may not have that upside-down anchor recovery issues, but there are many others sufferings from it. When you are single-handed, it is not easy to go to the bow of your boat and use a stick to flip your anchor, plus it is not a safe task. Look again at the video I shared at the beginning. It doesn’t look safe at all, so that is something you wouldn’t want to do.

The shackles, in general, have “D” shapes, and they tend to sit on the rollers at the bow rollers and make it difficult for the anchors to turn. When we tried to make stronger shackles than the chains, they became bigger and that problem became a bigger one. That is why we ideally wanted to make a slim point design serving our three needs;

-That is stronger than the anchor chains connected.
-That doesn’t sit on the rollers like the shackles to make it harder for the anchor to turn.
-That doesn’t make any extra resistance to the ULTRA Anchor shank when it digs.

Our first swivel design didn’t even have that flipping nub and rear bridge. It worked on some boats and flipped the anchors but we got upside-down anchor recovery complaints from some customers. Please see the picture below, we then added the nub only and made the first version ULTRA Flip Swivel which worked on more boats and flipped the anchors. Still, we got upside-down anchor recovery complaints from some customers. Hence, we finally had to add a rear bridge and made the last version of ULTRA Flip Swivel in 2011, which has been working for all customers.

After all, the above said if you use the ULTRA with a shackle more reliable than the chain connected and if you are not experiencing upside-down anchor recoveries, that is fine. You can use your ULTRA Anchor with that shackle.