spade or delta anchor vs fortress. any ideas for the adriatic?

[Toys_with_time]

Originally Posted by davidmilne

hello,
i am thinking of bringing my 35 foot double ender from maine to the adriatic. i already have two delta anchors. can anyone compare the delta or similar to the fortress? the advantage of the fortress as a thrd anchor is easier storage. but the real question is holding power. any ideas?
thank you

Have a look at the video below for a more scientific comparison of anchors.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=smgWTtFuk3U

You can also watch his other videos that cover individual anchors. The Fortress has incredibly high holding power (see his tests

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFciNIzJkng

and watch this one from minute 16

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P0hyDXcdUe8

) but only works in specific bottoms - sand and mud - and ideally you need to change the angle of the flukes using the kit they supply.

Throughout our 8 years in the Med we found it was more about the specifics of individual bays than being able to generalise about a particular area eg neighbouring bays could have completely different bottoms. We used a Delta and it held us through some very bad blows but it also let go a number of times not always because of the anchor eg caught in fishing net. We also have a Fortress as a stern anchor. From diving our anchor many hundreds of times, and looking at neighbours anchors, I learnt a lot about what worked and what didn't and in doubtful circumstances I would guide my wife from the water and use as much chain scope as space and circumstances allowed. Have now switched to a heavier Sarca Excel and will be interested to see how that performs in different conditions vs Panopes tests.

[Don C L]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

While the primary anchors for Carina (23k#) are 45 lbs., my stern anchor (I Med moor bow-in) is a 20 lb. high tensile Danforth and it was perfect. One time in Lefkas a force 6 wind came up from abeam, causing anchors to pull out: Carina was the last boat left holding off the dock, and twice held larger boats that dragged alongside. Afterwards it took half an hour to work the Danforth back up out of the mud; it had a plastic bag tangled on it but that didn't seem to affect the holding.

Greg

Yep, get an authentic Danforth 20H. I am suspicious of "Danforth types," or any copy for that matter, but I sleep like a baby with my Danforths set.

[David B]

Originally Posted by davidmilne

hello,
i am thinking of bringing my 35 foot double ender from maine to the adriatic. i already have two delta anchors. can anyone compare the delta or similar to the fortress? the advantage of the fortress as a thrd anchor is easier storage. but the real question is holding power. any ideas?
thank you

Your Delta(s) are a good back-up anchor. We have been cruising the Med since 2012, including a lot of that time in the Adriatic, and our Delta has held perfectly in all but soft mud - for that we have a Fortress.
Having said that, the Spade is superior, so my suggestion is Spade, with the other two as back-ups.

[David Mathis]

The Delta is about the best available in cobble and heavy gravel. However, it's useless in soft mud and barely acceptable is a few other bottoms. If you plan to anchor in an area with cobble, bring the Delta, otherwise leave it home or donate it to the Sea Scouts as a teaching aid to get a tax deduction.

[davidmilne]

hello,
after reading what seems like 200 articles and reviews i have decided to go with the excel anchor, 47 pounds.. i will keep my delta as a backup. the lighter delta i will keep as a stern anchor. and may god bless us all. the spade, the mantus were all contenders, as was the ultra.

any ideas on chain? galvanized, stainless, 8 mm or 10 ?

there is no end .

i want to thank everyone for useful information. if i drag it's my fault.

[CarinaPDX]

galvanized 8mm (5/16") high tensile chain. It weighs about 1/3 less than 10mm (~3/8") with comparable strength. Carry 100m or 100yd and let out greater length - extra rode length is better than extra weight.

Greg

[davidmilne]

i get that. but some would argue that stainless is less prone to corrosion. and stainless is certainly stronger. i agree with you on longer and smaller vs shorter and stronger. the problem with the sellers is that they want to sell , and its hard to be objective. truth is a moveable target.

[CarinaPDX]

No, stainless is not stronger than high tensile chain. HT is roughly double the breaking strength, and also much higher maximum working load. Stainless is about triple the price. As for corrosion, quality galvanized chain is not going to corrode for many years. Eventually wear at the end exposes steel so you end-for-end it. Finally when rust looks like becoming an issue you can re-galvanize it. For triple the price you are just tearing up money... I have no issue with the Daddy Warbucks of the world that insist on having stainless anchors and rodes - they do indeed look pretty - but functionally they are actually weaker than their galvanized counterparts.

Greg

[Rotten Ricky]

So glad that you are not going with a Danforth/Fortress anchor.

Just to reinforce your decision, and help others, this design might be good under certain unidirectional conditions such as when employing a stern-tie as well, but they have a major failure - that with a change of tide, your chain and/or rode can wrap around the cross bar and/or shank. The anchor will not reset again and you will have a tangled clump of steel sliding along the seabed. I nearly ended up on the rocks TWICE because of this.

They are also poor setting in hard sea bottoms or in grass/weed. Always have an anchor with a single smooth shank and no crossbar. Their ease of handling and storage is not worth the cost of losing your boat or your safety.

Happy sailing to you!

Cheers, RR.

[Rotten Ricky]

Originally Posted by CarinaPDX

No, stainless is not stronger than high tensile chain. HT is roughly double the breaking strength, and also much higher maximum working load.

Greg

Greg is right - stainless is not stronger than most steel. It is harder, but not tougher/stronger.

As an aside, if you ever have to drill or cut stainless, do so with copious cutting fluid, very slow speed of a drill and heavy pressure or a even a new bit will slide on the surface and harden the material quickly, making further progress next to impossible. From start to finish, keep that bit peeling out the swarf!

Cheers,

RR.

[CarinaPDX]

Originally Posted by Rotten Ricky

As an aside, if you ever have to drill or cut stainless, do so with copious cutting fluid, very slow speed of a drill and heavy pressure or a even a new bit will slide on the surface and harden the material quickly, making further progress next to impossible. From start to finish, keep that bit peeling out the swarf!

And use quality U.S.-made cobalt bits, if you can find them. Don't even think of using standard High Speed Steel (HSS) bits on stainless; the Chinese titanium-plated bits work well for a short time - buy lots.

Greg

[CAVOK]

Totally agree with your comments, in my past two seasons in the Med,
I’ve found the Excel not great in oozy mud or grass, but now use a lot more chain initially while digging it in. Generally though I’m happy with it & once it actually is set, it’s never let me down.

[davidmilne]

i want to thank everyone for the comments and suggestions. the anchor tests by s/v panopy are remarkable. what surprises me is how bad some of the anchors are i used to think it was entirely my fault when an anchor dragged . now i realize it was only 87.59 per cent me. now onto chain, i believe i will get galvanized high test. one question. between 3/8 and 5/16th chain, it is better to have smaller and longer or shorter and heavier? thank you all again

[blubaju]

depends on the windspeed you ordered. holding power is a mater of angle of attack, short streched chain >>> large angle, anchor might break out. opposite the longer chain. Longer lighter chain might be held down with additional rider. I'd opt for longer chain. Personal opinion, no advise ;-)

[Justis]

Originally Posted by davidmilne

hello,
after reading what seems like 200 articles and reviews i have decided to go with the excel anchor, 47 pounds.. i will keep my delta as a backup. the lighter delta i will keep as a stern anchor. and may god bless us all. the spade, the mantus were all contenders, as was the ultra.

any ideas on chain? galvanized, stainless, 8 mm or 10 ?

there is no end .

i want to thank everyone for useful information. if i drag it's my fault.

I generally recommend bigger/heaver chain as it gives you a better catenary effect.


You are some what limited to choice of chain by the current gypsy on your windless but you maybe able to get a replacement gypsy