Swivel - best way to use one

[jordanbigel]

I've been using a CQR 65lb for 20 years. Finally decided its time to upgrade and bought a "next gen" anchor - I'm very excited about it. (I bought a Rocna Vulcan 33kg primarily due to bow-platform arrangement which prohibits using a roll-bar style anchor, and because the Spade cannot be easily re-galvanized).

So, I'm trying to decide what to do about a swivel to help ensure proper orientation and alignment when raising the anchor the last 3 feet. My old CQR with the hinged shank and a swivel shackle between the anchor and the chain, would auto-rotate to the correct position 95% of the time. The other 5% I would just bend down and rotate it into the proper position, then reel in the last few feet of chain to secure the anchor.

In my first attempts at the dock to lower and raise new anchor (using the same arrangement: anchor ->swivel -> chain) I find the anchor fails to auto-rotate into the right alignment 4 out of 4 attempts.

I came across an article somewhere (cant find it now) which basically said to insert a 2 or 3 link section of chain between the anchor and the swivel, so you would have anchor -> shackle -> 3-link-chain -> swivel shackle -> chain.

Thinking about this, I don't really see how this changes anything, but it sounds believable.

Has anyone actually tried this?

I've also seen ads for "banana swivel shackles" which claim to solve the same problem, I think. Do these work?

I'm also concerned because the anchor is large and the bow-platform is teak, in my few tests raising it (at the dock) there was a tendency for the anchor to violently swing about trying to find its "groove" - the potential for damage to the teak, or worse the bobstays, seems like a real issue.

Thanks for your feedback!

[fxykty]

I’m not sure about the Vulcan, but our Spade has a similar high curved shank. If it comes into our roller backwards, it flips around every time due to the tip weight. We do have a double roller, so the upper roller holds the shank at a 45* degree angle so the anchor easily over balances and turns.

Regarding the swivel, why bother, simplify your system and get rid of it. If you desperately want a swivel, then add 3-5 chain links between the anchor and the swivel as described earlier. That’s to ensure the swivel, if mounted directly on the anchor shank, doesn’t bend the shank when loaded from the side. Nothing to do with helping the anchor flip over.

A banana link can be used to flip an anchor, but I think it depends on your roller setup.

[chrisr]

loads of debate pro-swivel and anti-swivel

i am in the pro-swivel camp. we use 8mm high tensile chain > swivel > 2m of normal 10mm chain > shackle > anchor

imho you definitely do not want the swivel attached directly to the anchor as i've never yet seen one that will like the angled load when the boat swings. thus we wanted to put some links of chain (like you mention) between anchor and swivel...but being a cat, our windlass is abt 2.5m from the bow roller so thought 'why just a short piece of chain...use as much as will fit' then thought to add a bit of extra weight right at the anchor by making this length 10mm iso 8mm

it also means the section of chain which is subject to high wear is easy to replace.

as regards flipping : our sarca excel sometimes comes up this way but usually we just hold the anchor just outside the roller for a bit and it sorts itself out. key is not to be in a hurry...

cheers,

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by fxykty

That’s to ensure the swivel, if mounted directly on the anchor shank, doesn’t bend the shank when loaded from the side. Nothing to do with helping the anchor flip over.

Ahh, yes, I see now. Thanks.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

I've been using a CQR 65lb for 20 years. Finally decided its time to upgrade and bought a "next gen" anchor - I'm very excited about it. (I bought a Rocna Vulcan 33kg primarily due to bow-platform arrangement which prohibits using a roll-bar style anchor, and because the Spade cannot be easily re-galvanized).

So, I'm trying to decide what to do about a swivel to help ensure proper orientation and alignment when raising the anchor the last 3 feet. My old CQR with the hinged shank and a swivel shackle between the anchor and the chain, would auto-rotate to the correct position 95% of the time. The other 5% I would just bend down and rotate it into the proper position, then reel in the last few feet of chain to secure the anchor.

In my first attempts at the dock to lower and raise new anchor (using the same arrangement: anchor ->swivel -> chain) I find the anchor fails to auto-rotate into the right alignment 4 out of 4 attempts.

I came across an article somewhere (cant find it now) which basically said to insert a 2 or 3 link section of chain between the anchor and the swivel, so you would have anchor -> shackle -> 3-link-chain -> swivel shackle -> chain.

Thinking about this, I don't really see how this changes anything, but it sounds believable.

Has anyone actually tried this?

I've also seen ads for "banana swivel shackles" which claim to solve the same problem, I think. Do these work?

I'm also concerned because the anchor is large and the bow-platform is teak, in my few tests raising it (at the dock) there was a tendency for the anchor to violently swing about trying to find its "groove" - the potential for damage to the teak, or worse the bobstays, seems like a real issue.

Thanks for your feedback!

Congratulations on your new Vulcan, we used one for years and it never let us down, even in 60-70 knot gales. It can be finicky to set requiring good technique, let me know if you want more information about that.

Last year we sold our vulcan and got an Excel and love it. We live on the hook and the Excel is so much easier to set, fits in our bowsprit roller, and holds like the devil.

I've had the same problem you're experiencing and after years of messing with swivels I finally gave up and followed the advice of the wise old salts here on CF who say we don't need them.

Here's the deal from my perspective- if the chain is oriented correctly on the windlass it will come up and remove twists as it does, and when the anchor breaks free as it comes up it untwists itself as well and the anchor -should- be in the right orientation to be raised without manhandling it.

FWIW I tried a flip link and it didn't seem to work for me any better than using nothing, but it might be worth a try for you.

[Shrew]

I like the Mantus swivel. very beefy. I had the same issue with a Rocna vulcan. No issues now. the 3 links between anchor shackle and swivel reduces side-loading on the swivel. I don't have enough room. I only have 3 links between the gypsy and the swivel when the anchor is in the pocket as it is. I believe I have the largest shackle that will fit with the pin on the anchor and the largest shackle that will fit with the pin on the on the swivel, so the two shackle eyes act like a hinge anyway.

[Scubaseas]

I'm in the no swivel camp. Had them in the past, really makes no difference with Delta or Spade as long as the chain is "right side up". If you consistently have the Vulcan come up wrong rotate the chain 180* . If no joy then sure anchor, shackle (pin in chain) chain (3 links), swivel, chain rode should work fine. Make sure the swivel is not the weakest link. The Mantus ones seem to work well.

[Nani Kai]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

I've been using a CQR 65lb for 20 years. Finally decided its time to upgrade and bought a "next gen" anchor - I'm very excited about it. (I bought a Rocna Vulcan 33kg .....

We have the same size Rocna on our Cat except the original version not the Vulcan. When we bought it I put on the best swivel I could find, attached it to the shank and then to the chain. It failed due to side loading within 2 months. It also didn't seem to make a whole lot of difference to the problem we had with the Delta it replaced which was coming into the roller all cockeyed. Not having a replacement swivel I simply shackled the anchor to the chain and it worked like a champ. Then and only then did I read the instructions that came with the Rocna wherein the designers said "don't use a swivel". Typical me: "We don't need no stinkin' instructions."

[jordanbigel]

Thanks for all the feedback on the swivel.

Considering my current swivel is 20 years old, I was thinking its time to retire it and maybe get one of those beefy Mantus swivels. But, since they are so expensive, and there seems to be a broad consensus that they are not needed, I think I'm going to try the no-swivel approach first.

Now, I've got a Crosby 209A anchor 3/8 shackle rated at 4400lbs but the 3/8" G4 HT chain is rated at 5400lbs - that makes the shackle the weak link. I can't find a shackle with a higher WLL (except the Wichard titanium shackle which has a WLL of 7,700lbs - but the cost is crazy).

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

Thanks for all the feedback on the swivel.



Considering my current swivel is 20 years old, I was thinking its time to retire it and maybe get one of those beefy Mantus swivels. But, since they are so expensive, and there seems to be a broad consensus that they are not needed, I think I'm going to try the no-swivel approach first.



Now, I've got a Crosby 209A anchor 3/8 shackle rated at 4400lbs but the 3/8" G4 HT chain is rated at 5400lbs - that makes the shackle the weak link. I can't find a shackle with a higher WLL (except the Wichard titanium shackle which has a WLL of 7,700lbs - but the cost is crazy).

My understanding is that you can go one shackle size larger than the chain to get similar working strengths. Remember that the inside diameter of a chain link is quite a bit larger than the pin of a shackle of the same rod size.

Hopefully your anchor’s shank has a large enough hole so that you can fit the shackle through it. If not, you’ll need to use two shackles bow to bow so that you have a pin to place through the first chain link.

[Uncle Bob]

Swivel - best way to use one?
In my humble opinion, as some sort of marine decor or wall ornament.

[jordanbigel]

Originally Posted by fxykty

you can go one shackle size larger than the chain to get similar working strengths. Remember that the inside diameter of a chain link is quite a bit larger than the pin of a shackle of the same rod size.

Yes, of course. I should have compared the shackle pin size to the chain specs. Thanks for pointing that out.

[Scubaseas]

Originally Posted by jordanbigel

Yes, of course. I should have compared the shackle pin size to the chain specs. Thanks for pointing that out.

7/16" G209A Crosby will fit 3/8" G4 chain. WLL on the shackle is 2 2/3 metric tons (5732lbs)

[Marathon1150]

I abandoned using swivels after testing a variety of them, none of which solved a chain twist problem that caused the chain to pop off the gypsy frequently.

Then I read this:

https://www.practical-sailor.com/blo...es%20or%20more.

I am definitely in the "no swivel camp", probably forever.