Titanium Swivel

[Stumble]

Jim,

I wanted to adress this specifically. You raise two points that are certainly important, and I would like to adress them in turn.

1) The reason we do not have prices listed on our website for most products in the the work titanium price is a relatively fast fluctuating number. If we were to keep quotes up, those prices would have to reflect not the current price of titanium, but also reasonable increases that might occur. To try and ensure we provide quality parts at the best price possible we quote prices as needed so that our customers only pay the actual cost of the base metal.

The price for titanium for instance is currently trading at around $7.25/kilo, in November it was at $8/kilo. Titanium futures however are trading at $13/kilo past November, and $8/kilo before November. So by pricing justas it's ordered we can price based upon a $7.25/kilo price, instead of having to price based upon a futures price of $13/kilo. It does make the process more cumbersome than if we just put up prices, but it allows us to sell to customers for less, which we feel is more important.

2) The reason we do not spec out MBL, or SWL also has two reasons that I will address.
a) We do not spec MBL simply because we are not an engineering firm. Allied titanium is a manufacturer that takes the products our customers design and make them in titanium. That means in most cases we have done no specific testing or design for an individual part. Once a part is designed, and ordered by an engineering firm, we then offer the same design to the general public. Again this is to keep the price as low as we can.

We do have the cabability to destruction test individual parts, and when that is done we can specify the MBL (Minimum Breaking Load) for a specific part number.

b) SWL (Safe Working Load), is generally never specced by manufacturers, since SWL is determined by dividing the MBL by the safety factor needed for a specific applicatioin. While there are industry standards for what that safety factor shoulod be it is up to the end consumer to determin what their use demands. An America's Cup boat for instance may use a safety facto of 1.1:1 because they want maximum weight reduction, while a cruiser might use 5:1 because they don't want to have to ever worry about something failing. While most equipment where a breakage endangers humal life might use a 10:1 safety margin.

So SWL changes based upon the intended use of the product, and the tolerance of the end user to failure risk. These factors are just beyond the ability of a manufacturer to reasonably account for.


That being said, a titanium grade 5 shackle will be roughly two and a half times stronger than an identicle part made from 316 stainless. As well as haveing much better corrosion and fatigue tollerances, and weighing around half as much.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Besides the missing price, there is no listed SWL nor breaking strength. If this is a legitimate product one would expect those features to be prominently displayed.

Looks like a nice bit of gear, but it makes me wonder...

Cheers,

Jim

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Jim,

I wanted to adress this specifically. You raise two points that are certainly important, and I would like to adress them in turn.

1) The reason we do not have prices listed on our website for most products in the the work titanium price is a relatively fast fluctuating number. If we were to keep quotes up, those prices would have to reflect not the current price of titanium, but also reasonable increases that might occur. To try and ensure we provide quality parts at the best price possible we quote prices as needed so that our customers only pay the actual cost of the base metal.

The price for titanium for instance is currently trading at around $7.25/kilo, in November it was at $8/kilo. Titanium futures however are trading at $13/kilo past November, and $8/kilo before November. So by pricing justas it's ordered we can price based upon a $7.25/kilo price, instead of having to price based upon a futures price of $13/kilo. It does make the process more cumbersome than if we just put up prices, but it allows us to sell to customers for less, which we feel is more important.

2) The reason we do not spec out MBL, or SWL also has two reasons that I will address.
a) We do not spec MBL simply because we are not an engineering firm. Allied titanium is a manufacturer that takes the products our customers design and make them in titanium. That means in most cases we have done no specific testing or design for an individual part. Once a part is designed, and ordered by an engineering firm, we then offer the same design to the general public. Again this is to keep the price as low as we can.

We do have the cabability to destruction test individual parts, and when that is done we can specify the MBL (Minimum Breaking Load) for a specific part number.

b) SWL (Safe Working Load), is generally never specced by manufacturers, since SWL is determined by dividing the MBL by the safety factor needed for a specific applicatioin. While there are industry standards for what that safety factor shoulod be it is up to the end consumer to determin what their use demands. An America's Cup boat for instance may use a safety facto of 1.1:1 because they want maximum weight reduction, while a cruiser might use 5:1 because they don't want to have to ever worry about something failing. While most equipment where a breakage endangers humal life might use a 10:1 safety margin.

So SWL changes based upon the intended use of the product, and the tolerance of the end user to failure risk. These factors are just beyond the ability of a manufacturer to reasonably account for.


That being said, a titanium grade 5 shackle will be roughly two and a half times stronger than an identicle part made from 316 stainless. As well as haveing much better corrosion and fatigue tollerances, and weighing around half as much.

G'Day Greg,

Thanks for the thoughtful and informative reply. However, it generates another set of queries:

The cost of the raw Ti material seems to constitute a pretty small fraction of the cost of the finished item. That is, in a swivel that might weigh 100 grams, the maximum price differential that you quote ( roughly 7 to 13 dollars/kg) results in a differential cost of about 60 cents... not so much in the case of an item that would sell for around (at a guess) 100 times as much. So, how does that prevent you from listing a price with the usual admonition that it may change without notice? All manufacturers face the issue of varying material costs, yet most manage to let prospective customers know what the item is gonna cost them.

And, while I can appreciate your point about SWLs, for an item like an anchor swivel where breaking strength is perhaps the single most important criterion for selection. If you have not performed a destructive test, how can you offer it for sale with good faith? To say that it will be stronger than the same item in s/s isn't very reassuring, since one does not know what that strength is either.

Anyway, don't take this as a condemnation of your product or of the use of Ti in yacht hardware. As the price of Ti stuff comes down it will undoubtedly segue from the race boats to the performance cruisers, and I look forward to that.

Cheers,

Jim

[bobconnie]

All I can say is if it's so expensive ya can't put a price on it ! it's way to expensive for me !!Ill take the asking price of yours and buy a BIG bunch of good Galvinized hardware for my anchor needs ! and have Spares !! Just my 2 cents. don't need Shiney I just need good working hardware !!

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Kind of a strange time to do this...

I just accepted (about an hour ago) a position as a salesman for Allied Titanium, and wanted to make the thread aware of that. Note that I actually did not have a business relationship with Allied (other than as a customer) at the time I made all previous comments on this thread.

I will need to check the forum rules on manufacturers representatives using the forum, before continuing to add to the conversation, but if I can be of any help, or if you would like more information please feel free to contact me by PM.

Greg Rubin
Allied Titanium

Congrats on the job. They have an impressive product list. Its a fabulous candy store. Unfortunately, I don't have one of those fabeled magic purses that is always full of money. FYI - Allied was the highest quote I received for the chain plates (ref above post).

Point of INFO on chain plates. Your insurance agent may be interested that you change to titanium plates and some are reported to reduce rates if you make the switch.

[Cotemar]

SVNeko,

If you are hoping that installing a swivel will stop your anchor from coming up backwards.

Swivels do not do that. Your anchor will still come up backwards with a swivel.

Actually swivels do nothing but add potential breaking points.

Two oversized shackles would be better.

Only a Righting Swivel will bring up the anchor in the right position every time

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by Cotemar

SVNeko,

If you are hoping that installing a swivel will stop your anchor from coming up backwards.

Swivels do not do that. Your anchor will still come up backwards with a swivel.

Actually swivels do nothing but add potential breaking points.

Two oversized shackles would be better.

Only a Righting Swivel will bring up the anchor in the right position every time

I am aware of that. I am not sure how you knew that was an issue, but it is. That is why I am also looking at the Ultra swivel. Still, a swivel makes it easier to spin the anchor even if it does not automatically spin it. Had a Kong on my old anchor and it was stuck on so good, I sold it with the anchor. Now carry a Manson 100# supreme and it is heavy and hard to spin. Currently, its attached with two shackles, but the Crosby shackle big enough to fit and be strong enough, barely fits in the roller and is bashing the bejesus out of it. Next problem is that it seems the swivel big enough to take the anchor (plus provide extra strength) is too big for the 10mm chain.

[Cotemar]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

I am not sure how you knew that was an issue, but it is. That is why I am also looking at the Ultra swivel. Still, a swivel makes it easier to spin the anchor even if it does not automatically spin it.

Everyone has the anchor come up backwards at some time. It is usually corrected by tugging & twisting on the chain which is not very good for your back.

A Anchor Righting Swivel does all that for you without the fuss or back problems.
I have tried everything, but now with the Righting Swivel it just works every time no matter which way the anchor comes up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jmnw7...ature=youtu.be

[Stumble]

Jim,

The world price for titanium is typically quoted based upon the titanium sponge prices. While this is indicitive of the cost of the finished product, it is not the price for billet or ingot titanium. Spong still has to go through a significant refining process to take it from roughly 93% titanium to whatever final stage is required, then the alloy has to be made. So the world price I quoted is a far from workable product. But it is a significant factor in the final product cost, since, sadly, the process for finishing titanium is really in its commercial infancy. Due to some legacy cold war regulations, there just hasn't been much investment in reducing the cost of manufacturing world wide until about ten years ago.

In the last ten years however new processes have come on line and are starting to reduce the cost of manufacturing. There has also been significant investment by the US Navy, and ship builders in titanium fabrication methods that have also helped drive down the price. And with the cost of stainless (acredited to a huge surge in chromium prices) rising in the last few years, titanium has started to close the price gap between titanium and 316SS.

For instance our nuts, bolts, and general fasteners are running about 20% more than the same part in 316SS. Yes we are more, but the titanium part is much stronger, and does not suffer from crevice corrosion at all. In fact, in normal environments titanium simply doesnt corrode from anything.


As for speccing MBL, I would love to tell you we have tested all our products, but we just can't. A large number of the parts we sell are custom designed by engineering firms to meet their needs, and then by agreement, the CAD files are retained by Allied Titanium to be sold to the public. I checked on this yesterday to be sure, but one of our anchor swivels was designed by a yavht captain, and checked by his engineering firm to be sutable for his boat. But no engineering data was shared with us.

The problem is that with over 40,000 discrete titanium items (and approxamatly 120,000 if you cound different alloys), we simply can't test every product that we manufacture for mechanical properties, or at least not without raising prices so high that titanium would once again become impossibly expensive.

However if we have a customer that was interested in paying for testing, or conditioned a large enough order on one being tested, we do have that capability. For instance our fasteners, which have been flying off the shelves recently have gotten to the point that they can be batch tested, and as predicted the numbers come out to about 2.5 times stronger than a 316SS bolt of the same size/thread.

And no worries Jim. I think titanium is going to slowely take over many roles in the marine environment over time. But it isnt there quite yet. However as the production numbers climb, prices get cheaper, and as prices come down quantities go up, which drives prices down... And we are just begining to see this positive spiral occur.

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

G'Day Greg,

Thanks for the thoughtful and informative reply. However, it generates another set of queries:

The cost of the raw Ti material seems to constitute a pretty small fraction of the cost of the finished item. That is, in a swivel that might weigh 100 grams, the maximum price differential that you quote ( roughly 7 to 13 dollars/kg) results in a differential cost of about 60 cents... not so much in the case of an item that would sell for around (at a guess) 100 times as much. So, how does that prevent you from listing a price with the usual admonition that it may change without notice? All manufacturers face the issue of varying material costs, yet most manage to let prospective customers know what the item is gonna cost them.

And, while I can appreciate your point about SWLs, for an item like an anchor swivel where breaking strength is perhaps the single most important criterion for selection. If you have not performed a destructive test, how can you offer it for sale with good faith? To say that it will be stronger than the same item in s/s isn't very reassuring, since one does not know what that strength is either.

Anyway, don't take this as a condemnation of your product or of the use of Ti in yacht hardware. As the price of Ti stuff comes down it will undoubtedly segue from the race boats to the performance cruisers, and I look forward to that.

Cheers,

Jim

[Cheechako]

great info and interesting thread for sure. It's about time Ti came more into the commercial market. It's a very abundant ore, the cost is in making it into a product. Also, very good point in general about the cost of material vs the cost of product. I love it when I see a 316SS item that is far more than a 304 SS item.... and the weight is maybe a few ounces! or how about SS vs steel. Let's say an item wieghs one pound. The steel costs $1 or less and the SS costs $4 or less. Think the item is only $3 more in SS? HA!

[roverhi]

There is a difference in machining and welding costs between various metals. Mild steel is easy to machine and weld. Something that can often be done with a simple welder, a worker with limited skills and even hand tools. Stainless is a pain to machine because it work hardens and welding requires gas to get a corrosion proof weld. Hear that Titanium also has machining issues. The exotics are going to cost more, just not necessarily more than the added cost of machining, welding and materials.

The question is should something that costs $4 more in material costs justify a 10 fold premium for the machining and welding issues. Because of the small demand, anything that is not mass produced in large quantities is going to cost considerably more. Then we also have what I call the 'magic' factor. Put Marine in the name of something and it automatically costs 10 times what a similar non marine item costs. Why, it's just 'Magic' and they can ask and get the premium. Put 'unobtanium' into the mix and the price goes up even more than the Marine label. Unless there are a lot of suppliers willing to make something out of 'exotic' materials and a lot of demand, prices are going to be high. Not because they actually cost all that much more to make but because there are those who can afford to pay the premium for a limited increase in utility.

Remember when an IBM PC with 640k of ram and a 10 meg hard drive cost $4,000 in 1985 dollars?? It wasn't because of the cost of the materials, which I heard were under $500, but the ability to assemble a working conglomeration of parts and a market that thought the value was there. Once the 'Magic' went out of the first PC's they dropped drastically in price. Advances in electronics also helped but the price ratio between cost of parts and the finished product also came down significantly.

[Cheechako]

But the reality in todays world is, a cnc machine cuts the stainless. It does the whole thing in a minute maybe. the feeds and speeds may be slightly different, and the machining time by a second or two. 300 series Stainless is very easy to weld, but yeah, a backyard welder with a stick machine (do they still exist? :>) wont be doing a good job. Forming SS is great, but severe forming maybe not as easy as dead soft steel, and die life is reduced, but most dies will outlast boat production quantities anyway. However, pricing schemes do raise prices. A company wants a certain amount of "added value" based on material cost, so if the steel was $3 and SS was $10 using a 3:1 ratio the SS product gets priced maybe $20 higher... it's an accounting thing I guess...

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Stumble

Jim,


For instance our nuts, bolts, and general fasteners are running about 20% more than the same part in 316SS. Yes we are more, but the titanium part is much stronger, and does not suffer from crevice corrosion at all. In fact, in normal environments titanium simply doesnt corrode from anything.

G'Day again Greg,

OK, I'm getting the picture of your sales operation, and can understand why you can't do destructive testing on all products. But, I am still not going to purchase an anchor swivel without some quantitative data about its strength, so there is a problem area here... don't know what the answer is.

But, I'm quite interested in Ti fasteners if their pricing is, as you say, only 20% higher than 316. For instance, my chainplates are made from 2205 Duplex ss but are secured by 316 bolts. I make sure that they stay dry to avoid corrosion issues, but would consider Ti replacements if they were reasonably priced. So, have you a link to your catalog, one that would actually list prices so that I could cost out the replacement?

Meanwhile, I hopefully await a downward price spiral!!

Cheers,

Jim

PS: Re Ti's corrosion... I often quote my first law of metallurgy: "Stainless steel isn't (stainless), but Titanium is"

[Cheechako]

I'm amazed that your prices arent more than 20% above 316... that's cool for Titanium. Not sure what grade 5 means in ti. I was familar with 1, 2 and 3 in Commercially pure ti. Gr 5 ... 6AL4V? I hope you continue to push the sales limit with the Ti stuff for sure. OTOH, I'm a skeptic when it comes to anything Ti that 's threaded... The stuff is pretty crack prone if there is anything to start it going...

[Stumble]

Jim,

I understand not wanting to buy without any strength data. I am seeing what can be done to get some work done on at least those products that need it before the parts will be readily accepted by the sailing community, but it may take some time.

I sent you a PM to get you set up with an account.

Cheechako,

Grade 5 is as you guessed Ti6Al4V. I am not familure with any specific problems in our threaded parts. I think (though am not sure) that the cracks you are talking about are primarily a concern with stamped parts, not cut ones. I will look into it and see if I can get some better guidance by our experts for you though.

[Cheechako]

Yeah, let me be clear... it's just an intuitive thing from years of Ti projects both machined and formed. In aerospace the thread tolerances are held very close as well as other details which alleviates any issues.
I'm not convinced that the ratings you see on the average shackle etc are based on actual tests... they could very well just be design predictions. Anyone know if Wichard or etc actually destoys a random sample of parts to see?
Hell, my Mr. Cofffee maker pours cofffee all over the counter everytime I fill a cup. Evidently they dont drink coffee enough over there to do that much of a test!