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Cheechako · 08-08-2017, 10:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by waterman46

Wait, how can the chain be twisted at all, if the windlass is used to bring it in all the way and it stays firmly in the wildcat? We are assuming all-chain rode.

Yeah, you would think ... but it does. From observation I would say it just jumps 1/2 turn as it goes thru the wildcat. When I had this problem it would sometimes jump, twist, and jam up at the hawse pipe.

CourageousME · 08-08-2017, 10:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by waterman46

Wait, how can the chain be twisted at all, if the windlass is used to bring it in all the way and it stays firmly in the wildcat? We are assuming all-chain rode.

All chain rode, yes. But I flaked it out on the ground and moved it all around when I was painting my marks. That means that only 15 feet at a time was suspended and the rest firmly on the ground I guess now that I think about it, it never had a chance to untangle in one full length. Thinking a deep water dropand bringing it up slow with the windlass/wildcat will fix. Also will keep my eyes out for a road come!

**Jim Cate** · 08-08-2017, 14:05

Do be sure that your windlass has enough grunt to hoist the full weight of your tackle. Some installations have difficulty with this task!

jim

Matt Johnson · 08-08-2017, 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

Do be sure that your windlass has enough grunt to hoist the full weight of your tackle. Some installations have difficulty with this task!

jim

Yup. Take the anchor off and just let the chain hang 150' below. I remember Bumfuzzle had this issue and let all their chain and anchor hang below the boat to untwist. The windlass couldn't hoist all the weight and neither could they. Finally the used their primary winches to pull the chain up slowly.

Matt

**JPA Cate** · 08-08-2017, 17:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by funjohnson

Yup. Take the anchor off and just let the chain hang 150' below. I remember Bumfuzzle had this issue and let all their chain and anchor hang below the boat to untwist. The windlass couldn't hoist all the weight and neither could they. Finally the used their primary winches to pull the chain up slowly.

Matt

^^^^^^^Exactly. All is not lost when the windlass is inadequate. Rolling hitches and primaries will save the day.

Ann

tstano · 08-08-2017, 20:18

I just loaded 300 feet of chain and I know there are twists. Next time we haul out I will unload and repack the mess without soaking it in saltwater or washing it down while piled in the locker. The old chain was getting too rusty to lay flat when retrieving the anchor so the cone (of chain) was growing taller toward the hawse until it wouldn't let any more chain in. Adding a traffic cone would just take up more space.

All U Get

**JPA Cate** · 08-08-2017, 20:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstano

I just loaded 300 feet of chain and I know there are twists. Next time we haul out I will unload and repack the mess without soaking it in saltwater or washing it down while piled in the locker. The old chain was getting too rusty to lay flat when retrieving the anchor so the cone (of chain) was growing taller toward the hawse until it wouldn't let any more chain in. Adding a traffic cone would just take up more space.

All U Get

As it happens, we have no cone. What we did, when we had access to a dock (but a jetty would work as well) was to flake it all down on the dock, and straighten it, bit by bit (Jim holding the chain, and twisting it as needed, and myself on the windlass button). Keep the flakes short enough so that pulling them up isn't too bad, and persevere. You do not have to haul out to do it, and nor do you have to find enough water to let it all hang.

Ann

tstano · 08-08-2017, 20:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPA Cate

As it happens, we have no cone. What we did, when we had access to a dock (but a jetty would work as well) was to flake it all down on the dock, and straighten it, bit by bit (Jim holding the chain, and twisting it as needed, and myself on the windlass button). Keep the flakes short enough so that pulling them up isn't too bad, and persevere. You do not have to haul out to do it, and nor do you have to find enough water to let it all hang.

Ann

Just wondering, ours always twist counter clockwise. Does yours twist clockwise?

All U Get

thinwater · 09-08-2017, 11:04

Clarification please.

On my vertical windlass there is no possibility, what so ever, that a twist can pass the gypsy. The chain fits well. I believe this is the case will all vertical gypsies, since there is a 180 degree wrap. I suggest that if your vertical windlass will pass a twist you have a very poor chain fit.

On a horizontal windlass the chain has only a 90 degree wrap, and my understanding is that a twist can occasionally pass, which may or may not jam in the hawse pipe. Yes, the chain lays down with a twist, but it plays out in the reverse manner, no problem.

Thus, in my understanding, all of this dancing around with swivels and letting chain way out only applies to horizontal windlasses. With a vertical windlass, since the chain cannot turn in the gypsy, there are never twists in the chain locker unless the chain was not loaded with the windlass, and tangles only happen when the pile abruptly falls over, and seldom then.

Another solution, less draconian than looking for 300 feet of water, is to load the chain slowly, in 4' increments, and manually flip the chain into alignment. Do this in shallow water, and there will be very little load on the chain.

Cheechako · 09-08-2017, 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by thinwater

Clarification please.

On my vertical windlass there is no possibility, what so ever, that a twist can pass the gypsy. The chain fits well. I believe this is the case will all vertical gypsies, since there is a 180 degree wrap. I suggest that if your vertical windlass will pass a twist you have a very poor chain fit.

On a horizontal windlass the chain has only a 90 degree wrap, and my understanding is that a twist can occasionally pass, which may or may not jam in the hawse pipe. Yes, the chain lays down with a twist, but it plays out in the reverse manner, no problem.

Thus, in my understanding, all of this dancing around with swivels and letting chain way out only applies to horizontal windlasses. With a vertical windlass, since the chain cannot turn in the gypsy, there are never twists in the chain locker unless the chain was not loaded with the windlass, and tangles only happen when the pile abruptly falls over, and seldom then.

Another solution, less draconian than looking for 300 feet of water, is to load the chain slowly, in 4' increments, and manually flip the chain into alignment. Do this in shallow water, and there will be very little load on the chain.

Thinking back I have not seen much over-riding on a vertical either. If it did it may end in a jam, which I have experienced, but not often. Verticals often have a close fitted hawse pipe section, precluding much chain movement.
Twisting is an issue created between the windlass and the seabottom. Horizontal windlasses have very little engagement in the wildcat... in theory 90 degrees as mentioned.... in reality, the wildcat "notches" are even less engaged than that I would think. There are what 6? link cavities in a wildcat? That's 1.5 for every 90 degrees, so probably one link well engaged.
I usually took the chain out onto a dock, loaded it slowly with the windlass making sure it had no twist. The grooved bow roller helps with this.

**JPA Cate** · 09-08-2017, 14:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by tstano

Just wondering, ours always twist counter clockwise. Does yours twist clockwise?

All U Get

Well, it IS the southern hemisphere!

But yes, Jim was twisting it anti-clockwise to keep it coming straight, this last time. I did not notice that before, so I can't speak for the other times.

Ann

groundtackle · 10-08-2017, 08:50

Over the years I have witnessed twist inside the locker even with the best chain/sprocket mates, it happens so fast you don't see it happen. I'm not in the anchor swivel fan camp. My chain bitter ends are attached with high tech line long enough to come out on deck. Line also fits the gypsy when rode all deployed for the some grip on the way back in. I dump it all in shallow water often to clean locker, remark and inspect.
I started installing a big rated inexpensive Crosby galv swivel where the bitter end attaches inside the boat. Its all lashed so no tools, just a knife required.
That swivel inside solved that magical twist issue.
Chris

**JPA Cate** · 10-08-2017, 13:32

Quote:

My chain bitter ends are attached with high tech line long enough to come out on deck.

Quite so. We've only had to cut ours once in all our years of cruising, and did buoy it first. Snagged on an underground fiber optics cable we were. Came back at slack water and retrieved it all the next day, but had been unable to clear it, and fortunately we didn't damage it. Not fun for Jim, I'm afraid, almost zero visibility, and concern about bull sharks. But, all's well that ends well, eh?

Ann