Ultra Swivel - opinions?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by colemj

Interestingly, our WASI swivel, which is very similar to the Ultra, does not cause this wear issue - or at least it takes a couple of years to do so. That could be something as simple as the specific chain/swivel combination, though.

Mark

Not saying it is, but it could also be the finish on the WASI swivel, if where it contacts the chain is polished, it might be causing very little wear.

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by colemj

Interestingly, our WASI swivel, which is very similar to the Ultra, does not cause this wear issue - or at least it takes a couple of years to do so. That could be something as simple as the specific chain/swivel combination, though.

Mark

Our Ultra swivel, which is even more similar to the Ultra swivel , does not have this wear issue either. But that may be because we use a shackle between the swivel and chain, due to our swivel being 2x oversize for the chain. That is how we deal with the questions of swivel strength.

[Hinckley Ketch]

I have one. On my 99 lbs anchor/ Ultra. This has held the boat and been a dream anchor. We held, doing 360's and 60 knot winds in the Bahamas. Ultra installed the swivel before shipping. In our opinion it is cheap insurance and we like to sleep at night. This replaced the same size CQR, that did plow, aka known as dragging.

[Spade Anchor]

Ultra is not the best brand to be researching. Take a look at the Wasi Power ball from Germany. They post the breaking points and its endorsed by Lloyd of Germany. This swivel is not the weakest point in your rode.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by Hinckley Ketch

I have one. On my 99 lbs anchor/ Ultra. This has held the boat and been a dream anchor. We held, doing 360's and 60 knot winds in the Bahamas. Ultra installed the swivel before shipping. In our opinion it is cheap insurance and we like to sleep at night. This replaced the same size CQR, that did plow, aka known as dragging.

We have the same anchor same swivel. We live on the hook six months per year. Ultra saves us many thousands of dollars every year.

[ranger58sb]

Ultra is not the best brand to be researching. Take a look at the Wasi Power ball from Germany. They post the breaking points and its endorsed by Lloyd of Germany. This swivel is not the weakest point in your rode.

Does it automatically present the anchor to the roller "right side up"? That was the Ultra feature that caught my attention.

-Chris

[colemj]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

Does it automatically present the anchor to the roller "right side up"? That was the Ultra feature that caught my attention.

-Chris

No. The Wasi is a bit beefier design than the Ultra, but does not have the righting feature.

Mark

[Panope]

I want to find out why some anchors will rotate themselves correctly on the roller and some will not.

Can someone who must use a swivel to retrieve thier anchor please explain exactly what happens if a swivel is not used? I am asking about the issue of the anchor coming up "backwards".

I am not asking about the issue of the chain becoming twisted.

The reason I ask, is because my anchors ALWAYS rotate themselves correctly the instant they touch the bow roller. Never had a swivel.

What have I got that others don't?

Steve

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Panope

What have I got that others don't?

Steve

1. A Bruce anchor
2. (probably) no groove in your anchor roller

My experience with our old Bruce is that it was weighted such that it always hung in the correct orientation when free. Many of the newer anchors do not do so because of their geometry and weighting. Some are 50/50 and others simply like to hang "backwards".

Also, if one is using an anchor roller with a deep groove in it that keeps the chain running dead straight with no twisting past it as it is retrieved, then there is a 50/50 chance any anchor will come up "backwards".

Mark

[Panope]

Thanks Mark,

I have a no groove roller and now that you mention it, it makes perfect sense that a grooved roller could prevent a shank from rotating.

This same roller of mine has retrieved a CQR for 9 years, the Bruce for 10 years, and I now have 2 full seasons with a Manson Supreme - all with out a swivel.

I am inclined to think that the groove/no-groove roller might be the bigger issue.

Also, I am now wondering if some folks that have spent the big bucks on the Ultra swivel might have saved some money by getting a no-groove roller instead?

Steve

[Nicholson58]

Originally Posted by SVNeko

I would like to know where this information comes from. SS is generally not softer than "alloy" even though its not clear what alloy we are talking about. Stainless is often considered a brittle steel. Plus you say the 1/2 swivel you have is stronger than the 7/16 chain. With just one 1/2 pin vs both sides of a 7/16 chain link, I question that. WHere is the strength data? I also don't think it is stronger than the boat jewelery 1/2" ultra swivel which has a lot more metal handling the load than the thing in your picture.

Here is another thread on this forum.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ng-127858.html

Two sources for the forerunner swivel are attached below. Note that the Common Links not shown are included with the swivels as shown in the photos I posted previously. I paid 180 dollars for the entire swivel assembly with common links and the oversized D link shackle. The smallest Ultra swivel rated to my chain is over 700 dollars. The preferred size is nearly 1000. The ratings are close, considering that both well exceed my chain strength, they are equivalent. The Ultra is almost too large to pass my bow roller and therefore also a likely candidate for getting wedged in a crevice. There is a very good reason that all chain swivels on commercial and military vessels use the forerunner swivel. They are strong, compact, pass the bow rollers or pipe, pass the capstan & pulleys, affordable. As I noted previously, if you have a normal or more common displacement boat, you have many more options. When you deal with a heavy vessel, you will be forced to look at what the large vessels use.

I have been a registered PE doing machine design for over 40 years. 316 SS has a lower yield than forged alloy. We refer to all 300 series stainless as 'butter'. 316L is the common marine SS because it is less prone to stress chloride & intergranular cracking. If you wish to see failed SS swivels due to both bending over a rock or the bow roller or from stress cracking go to Google and search for "anchor swivel failure images".
These two sources have been in the business of equipping vessels for along time. You won't find this stuff at We$t Marine or other chandleries catering to private yachtsmen. Neither will you find anyone serious about his livelihood shopping at those places for anchors, chain, swivels.

Swivel Assembly | Anchor Marine

Anchor Chain Swivels (testing facilities to 2,000,000 pounds.)

[Kenomac]

Above is the same crap data regergitated on the internet which neglects to mention important information such as the work hardening of stainless steel, the shape and structure of the steel, corrosion resistance of stainless and the amount of stainless steel used when making the comparison. Compares only cheap low quality stainless products to galvanized steel. Choose to remain ignorant if you wish, or open your mind and become enlightened.

[ranger58sb]

Most of the "wrong direction" symptoms we've had were with our just-previous SuperMax 16 anchor. No clue why, but it would often come up out of the water backwards. But sometimes not. Sometimes I wonder if it might be related to the amount of mud it's carrying on any particular retrieval.

We have a grooved roller, but with the anchor already facing the wrong direction, not sure roller differences would matter.

We've recently switched to the slightly heavier/slightly longer Max 17... but have only had it down once. It came up backwards. OTOH, the current swivel was found to be binding, not swiveling, so that may have been a factor.

If the new anchor generally starts coming up correctly, though -- perhaps as a function of it's weight and associated geometry -- I'm happy to remove the swivel altogether. But if that doesn't happen, it's a major pain to reach it to turn it around...

I am at the same time doing some light research into maybe replacing our roller, which is simply a fairlead. Might be able to fashion some kind of articulating thing that allows our anchor to dock slightly more elegantly. Currently, I usually have to manually lift it the last 2-3', i.e., onto the roller. Wouldn't mind letting my windlass do that for me.

-Chris

[colemj]

Originally Posted by Panope

Also, I am now wondering if some folks that have spent the big bucks on the Ultra swivel might have saved some money by getting a no-groove roller instead?

Steve

For many of us, the groove in the roller serves a vital purpose - it prevents the chain from twisting as it moves from the roller to the windlass. On our boat, that distance is ~8' and without the groove, the chain pretty quickly becomes twisted and kinked in the locker and doesn't go through the gypsy well.

Of course, that means any twist is pushed down toward the anchor during retrieval - which requires a swivel to accommodate.

For boats with windlasses close to the roller, this isn't as much of an issue. Boats routinely anchored in deep water also don't see the issue as much because the anchor has plenty of time and length to unwind on the chain as it is retrieved.

Mark

[colemj]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

We have a grooved roller, but with the anchor already facing the wrong direction, not sure roller differences would matter.

My point about the grooved roller is that it sets and keeps the alignment of the chain as it is being retrieved. So one has a 50/50 chance of the anchor coming up in either orientation, unless the chain jumps in the groove and aligns differently.

Our old Delta and CQR anchors would immediately "flip" somewhat gracefully once the shank reached the roller if they came up backward. Our Rocna for some reason will not flip over easily once its shank is on the roller, and if it does, it is far from graceful and can cause damage.

I believe the difference in those behaviors is the weight % in the tips of the Delta and CQR compared to the Rocna.

Mark