Upsizing anchor - suggestions?

[jerryf609]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

He's not talking about dragging. He's talking about a sudden loss of propulsion in a confined space with imminent risk of grounding. Dump the anchor overboard quickly and hope like hell it grabs. His didn't. Most modern designs will. There's no option for good setting technique in that situation. It's just dump enough rode while still moving and hope.

Yep. You get it. I think Thomm is so focused on his opinion and debate, he can't see anything else.

Anyway got my new 12kg Vulcan, 125' chain and Lewmar V700 windlass delivered. Cant wait for the weather to break in Michigan and get it installed ...aling with the rest of spring recommissioning.

Happy sailing.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

He's not talking about dragging. He's talking about a sudden loss of propulsion in a confined space with imminent risk of grounding. Dump the anchor overboard quickly and hope like hell it grabs. His didn't. Most modern designs will. There's no option for good setting technique in that situation. It's just dump enough rode while still moving and hope.

Another time when I was 21, the motor quit on my 17' power boat, and we were being taken out a very narrow inlet into the Atlantic Ocean. A squall was coming up also.

We were out by the Barrier Islands (Cedar Island to be exact).

I tossed in the old anchor that came with the boat (see photo) and it dragged along the bottom for a while then grabbed just before we got out too far.

In about an hour I found that the ancient fuel line had split so I cut off a bit of it, reconnect, started the engine (a 4 stroke 1960's Bearcat 55 hp) and went in the 5 miles to the dock

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ccIDT7B3jHY

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by jerryf609

Yep. You get it. I think Thomm is so focused on his opinion and debate, he can't see anything else.

Anyway got my new 12kg Vulcan, 125' chain and Lewmar V700 windlass delivered. Cant wait for the weather to break in Michigan and get it installed ...aling with the rest of spring recommissioning.

Happy sailing.

Yeah, I get it too.

You lose power for a bit and freak out then run out and buy a new anchor. That's a pretty normal reaction these days for a guy with his first boat or so.

The key thing you need to remember is that you are on a sailboat!

It's actually all about experience.

I've had the same thing happen a few times, but having been a beach cat racer for many years having no engine is normal.

Plus as mentioned above, I have dealt with that no power situation a few times since when I was young and with my present boat.

I have completed numerous 19-100 mile sailboat races on boats from 16' -20' and had anchors on none of them.

This includes sailing under bridges (sometime into the wind) and dealing with 30-82 boat traffic on the starting line.

And for that matter no engine either so the no power scenario isn't that big of a deal.

All cruisers should probably learn sailing on a sailboat without an engine. Now that would be good training.

Since my first two sailboats after my 6 power boats were Hobie 16's maybe this video will help you next time.

Beach cat sailors sail their boats out from the marina or beach; they don't motor anywhere

The best training though along with the no engine thing is racing where you have to pull up to the start/finish line in heavy traffic, stop and hold your boat in position for 1-2 minutes without going over. (otherwise you'd get a penalty)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QO0LkUDALNk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRjj_t1nScA

[jerryf609]

You sir are getting annoying.

I have sailed for only about 10 years on a 12000 pound boat. I didnt reach this decision based on one incident. The old anchor is not up to my needs.

I havent raced much at all. But i did do the Clipper Cup race last year from Muskegon to Port Washington. I know about the start line and that you cant run your engine at the start or during the race.

So you just need to let it go and quit trying to insult people who you disagree with.

Bugger off.

[soopad00pa]

Went out today and had a new issue while anchoring - the wind (14kts) pushing the boat contrary to the tidal current and the rode looped around my keel.

That was freakin annoying. Very tedious to get free and I'm lucky it happened when I had someone aboard to help. Not sure I could've managed it singled handing.

First bit if research suggested a kellet - attached relatively close to the boat but far enough along to encourage the rode to stay below the keel. I like the idea in theory, but I wonder if it would've helped today - the rode was pulled pretty tight off to the side for a good while. The boat never swung nose to anchor before finally wrapping the keel.

And also once the keel got wrapped the current was abeam of us and we dragged FAST.

So - WTF to do to prevent this crap?

After loopdelooping to get the hook up, we went and sailed for awhile and then reanchored in a different anchorage but almost immediately things started looking similar and so we just hauled it in and went back to the marina. Very frustrating.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by soopad00pa

Went out today and had a new issue while anchoring - the wind (14kts) pushing the boat contrary to the tidal current and the rode looped around my keel.

That was freakin annoying. Very tedious to get free and I'm lucky it happened when I had someone aboard to help. Not sure I could've managed it singled handing.

First bit if research suggested a kellet - attached relatively close to the boat but far enough along to encourage the rode to stay below the keel. I like the idea in theory, but I wonder if it would've helped today - the rode was pulled pretty tight off to the side for a good while. The boat never swung nose to anchor before finally wrapping the keel.

And also once the keel got wrapped the current was abeam of us and we dragged FAST.

So - WTF to do to prevent this crap?

After loopdelooping to get the hook up, we went and sailed for awhile and then reanchored in a different anchorage but almost immediately things started looking similar and so we just hauled it in and went back to the marina. Very frustrating.

Way more chain?

[Jim Cate]

So, how deep was the water where you dropped the hook? I suspect it was pretty shallow, which increases the probability of a keel wrap with rope rode. If I am correct, you might start looking for deeper anchorages. I'm not familiar with your area and realize that it might be difficult!

But as suggested above, using chain, even very light chain, will alleviate the problem.

Jim

[rslifkin]

More chain is the ideal solution, but not always possible for smaller boats. A kellet to sink the rode closer to the boat will help. If you've got it pulled straight (where the kellet is doing nothing), you're not going to end up over the rode without it going slack first.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by soopad00pa

Went out today and had a new issue while anchoring - the wind (14kts) pushing the boat contrary to the tidal current and the rode looped around my keel.

First bit if research suggested a kellet - attached relatively close to the boat but far enough along to encourage the rode to stay below the keel.

So - WTF to do to prevent this crap?

Was this with a mostly-rope rode? I've forgotten where you are in your anchoring saga...

A kellet could maybe help, but it adds work... and changing to a rode with more chain would likely be much easier.

And what was the water depth? If very shallow, anchoring in slightly deeper water could improve the situation, too.

-Chris

[soopad00pa]

Went from 20 to 50ft of chain. First spot was in about 10ft and the second was at low tide in 6-7ft.

And of note, the rode was taut but at appx 90 to the boat and then slowly rotated to wrap the keel. I didn't know that was a thing. I fully expected to spin nose to anchor, but both times the anchor went down we drifted to the side and never lined up.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by soopad00pa

Went from 20 to 50ft of chain. First spot was in about 10ft and the second was at low tide in 6-7ft.

And of note, the rode was taut but at appx 90 to the boat and then slowly rotated to wrap the keel. I didn't know that was a thing. I fully expected to spin nose to anchor, but both times the anchor went down we drifted to the side and never lined up.

Just guessing about potential fixes, not knowing first-hand...

If your bow attachment is say 4' off the water (???) in 10' of depth, I guess that'd call for approx 70' of rode paid out at 5:1... and of course you could always increase scope. If you had 50' of chain out -- I mean if you meant you had only 50' of rode out and no more -- maybe increasing scope could have helped.

Another possible approach could be to upsize the diameter (hence weight) of your chain.

And another would be to increase the length of your chain leader, so if you routinely anchor in 10' of water, maybe 70' of chain leader could help.

Can you fly a riding sail? Or maybe raise your main just a tad -- enough to act as a riding sail? Might keep your bow pointed toward the anchor?

And yes, there's that kellet thing, although I'd usually think that to be a PITA.

14 kts of wind doesn't seem like much, to me. Surprised that caused issue...

-Chris

[soopad00pa]

Thanks for the ideas. Hadn't considered running out some sail. Cool.

I've been using 6-7:1 scope after my 1st drag; after final tweaking, more like 7-8:1 off the deck.

Just never (in my vast experience of anchoring over a dozen times ) had the boat not swing to where the anchor is at 12 o'clock. Yesterday, if I wasn't actively reversing, the rode stayed from 3 o'clock to 6 o'clock to wrapped around the keel.

[jerryf609]

Was this in the Bermuda Triangle by chance?

[chris mac]

When we sit in a high current area with opposing wind we tend to sit sideways Overton of the anchor. It's weird but not problematic.
Every once in a while though we start spinning in circles. The current catches us and moves us one way until the wind gusts and we go a different way. Last time this happened, I turned on the chart plotter and started a track. In 4 hours we traveled 2 NM. So I can easily see wrapping the rode around the keel.
Consequently, we try to avoid high current areas.
By the way, all chain definately helps, as it tends to drop quickly.

[team karst]

top side wind drag, vs hull drag. We manytimes have the anchor go straight back, between the hulls. With all chain. Minimum hull drag position is independent of moderate wind. Keels and skegs want to be parallel to the current.