What Type of Winch ?

[Sabbatical II]

In building my boat, I'm up to selecting the anchor winch. The boatbuilder wants me to fit a Muir horizontal. I only have experience with manual winches. Does this limit me to rope off one bow roller & chain off the other? Does a vertical windlass solve this problem? Do I want power down or freefall? What capacity do I need? The 42' boat will weigh about 15t loaded with 100m of (10mm?) chain and the heaviest anchor is a 40kg (88lb) Manson Ray. Vertical freefall of chain into the anchor locker is not a problem. It is wired for 12v DC only and some of the heavier winches seem to assume hydraulics which I don't want. Is 10mm chain the way to go and how much does 100m of it weigh anyway?

Any help will be much appreciated. Thank You

Greg

[zeehag]

you should have 3/8 in chain and a 44 pound anchor. i use cqr and i use bruce and i use danforth. any of those should be 44 pound. might be able to get away with 35 pound--i do--i am almost same weight as you--- i have 35 pound cqr and 5/16 chain- 200 ft of it. i am still seeking a bruce.

[St. Elsewhere]

The chain (10mm x 100m) will weigh 222kg. It should be strong enough too.

[Jim Cate]

G'Day Greg,

Sounds like you are getting pretty close -- must be exciting!

The queries you've posted will likely generate some really passionate responses. You have surely been following the thread about chain weight/catenary/holding power, etc as well as the interminable "which anchor is best" babble. You have already made your anchor selection, so that can be ignored at this point.

The chain size issue has some folks liking a smaller size (8 mm/5/16") in a higher test alloy, others suggesting normal steel in 10mm/3/8" size. I have come to believe that in ultimate holding power situations the chain weight does indeed not affect anchor breakout, but in more normal situations where some of the chain is lying on the bottom the extra friction generated by heavier/larger links has some advantages. Further, here in Oz I've not been able to source G-40 or higher test chain in galvanized finish. So, without importing chain, you're likely stuck with what they call "L-grade short link" here. In your place I'd go with the 10 mm size. FWIW, that's what we used on I-one and still use on I-two, both of which displace about 11 tonnes in cruise mode.

AS to windlasses, the advantage of horizontal axis is less chance of the chain jamming in the chain pipe, while the advantage of the vertical axis is a full 180 deg wrap around the gypsy. On I-one we had a horizontal axis, and several times when the chain came up with a twist in it, the chain jumped off the gypsy. When this happens in deep water the resulting free fall can be VERY difficult to stop, and hazardous to ones hands and feet. We've never had this happen with the vertical axis unit on I-2, but the chain often jams in the chainpipe (possibly only an issue with this particular model, a Maxwell VCR1500).

We find the power down option useful and routinely use it. It is slow, so for deep anchorages freefall will get the hook on the bottom quicker. One very useful advantage is that if the chain pile falls over and traps the outgoing chain, power down will usually muscle its way through the pileup.

As far as size of windlass, we've found the 1500 lb rated Maxwell plenty powerful for our 80 M of 10mm chain and 60 lb Manson Supreme.

Hope that this helps, mate. We'll be heading south asap on our way towards Tassie. If we have time we'll stop in the lake and perhaps have an eyeball. When is your estimated launch date?

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying CAirns Qld Oz

[sarafina]

Heh. Himself has a blonde anchor wench on board...


ME!

Works great, but it's hard on the manicure...

[roverhi]

I like the vertical winch with a rope capstan drum and chain/rope gypsy. It gives you the ability to warp yourself off at just about any angle. I recently ran aground and needed to put anchors out at 90 degrees from the bow to twist the boat around and keep it off of rocks when the tide came back in. Couldn't have done that with a horizontal windlass. Also warped myself into a bow to bulkhead/stern anchor with the rope capstan in Radio Bay Hilo. Dropped the stern hook, rowed a line to shore and made it fast on the bulkhead, then warped myself in. The all chain primary anchor just stayed where it was on the anchor roller with the chain around the gypsy below the rope capstan.

I don't know if it is my Lewmar Ocean Concept 1 winch or common to vertical windlasses but the chain jams when I let it freefall. The centrifugal force of the chain whirling around the capstan throws it off the capstan and the chain jams against the side of the windlass. Consequently, I always power mine down which has worked fine.

[Sabbatical II]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

G'Day Greg,

Sounds like you are getting pretty close -- must be exciting!

Hope that this helps, mate. We'll be heading south asap on our way towards Tassie. If we have time we'll stop in the lake and perhaps have an eyeball. When is your estimated launch date?

Cheers,

Jim and Ann s/v Insatiable II lying CAirns Qld Oz

Hi Jim and Ann

Well, not as close as I would like (the builder is tooo painstaking, but I'm very happy with the work done) and with the Xmas break, I'm expecting maybe early February. I'm just trying to sort some things out in my mind before time. I'm sure you'd find it interesting to look over and there's still plenty of water in the channel, so come on in. Alternatively if you come in at Newcastle, we'll come and get you. I've been following your progress north with interest. No one's sporting suntans down here yet, so don't rush.

Thanks everyone for your helpful comments.

Regards
Greg

[Dockhead]

We have the Lewmar chain-only vertical windlass and it is not my favorite piece of gear on board. The clutch is dodgy and you can't really deploy by free fall (centrifugal effect as described above). There is no good way to stop the chain which is scary. My own dream windlass, FWIT, would be a big horizontal, hydraulic, commercial fishing boat type with a powerful multi-plate clutch and some way to positively lock the shaft.
Our previous boat had a non-powered horizontal windlass whoch was superior in some ways.

[Sabbatical II]

Thanks for the comments so far but I'm still in the dark as to the ability of the horozontal windlass to to pull chain in off either roller since the gypsy can only be aligned with one of them. Any comments?

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Eleebana

Thanks for the comments so far but I'm still in the dark as to the ability of the horozontal windlass to to pull chain in off either roller since the gypsy can only be aligned with one of them. Any comments?

It depends on the geometry. How far back from the rollers is the place you have for your windlass? How far apart are the rollers? Horizontal windlasses will tolerate a certain angle; you can calculate it if you know the distance and then check against the specs of the windlass you are looking at. I think my vertical one will take 10 degrees offset pull according to the specs.

Of course it will work better if it's quite straight, so you might want to align it closely to the roller you plan on using the most, and less so to the other one.

This one:

http://www.maxwellmarine.com/gen_hwc.php?dimensions

actually has two gypsies, one for each roller, each with its own clutch. Probably not needed on a sailboat where the rollers are close together.

[rebel heart]

I'm roughly your dimensions and use 5/16" chain and a 60 pound Manson Supreme via a horizontal manual windlass. Despite what the world may tell you, you can use a manual windlass. The sun will still rise in the morning and the birds will still sing. One thing I like about it is I can take the handle out and knock the chain pile over through the hawsepipe as it's coming up. Until you get to the anchor it's relatively easy to simply hand-over-hand the chain over the roller. But for an anchor the size you'll need plus thirty feet of chain (let's say in 30' of water), you'll want to toss it on the wildcat and windlass it up.

Rebel Heart - Sailing, cruising, liveaboard blog and website - Eric's Blog - got the new anchor*rode

[svHyLyte]

Originally Posted by roverhi

I like the vertical winch with a rope capstan drum and chain/rope gypsy. It gives you the ability to warp yourself off at just about any angle. I recently ran aground and needed to put anchors out at 90 degrees from the bow to twist the boat around and keep it off of rocks when the tide came back in. Couldn't have done that with a horizontal windlass. Also warped myself into a bow to bulkhead/stern anchor with the rope capstan in Radio Bay Hilo. Dropped the stern hook, rowed a line to shore and made it fast on the bulkhead, then warped myself in. The all chain primary anchor just stayed where it was on the anchor roller with the chain around the gypsy below the rope capstan.

I don't know if it is my Lewmar Ocean Concept 1 winch or common to vertical windlasses but the chain jams when I let it freefall. The centrifugal force of the chain whirling around the capstan throws it off the capstan and the chain jams against the side of the windlass. Consequently, I always power mine down which has worked fine.

I second roverhi's observation. The only comment I have is that I dislike windlasses that have captive chain-pipes which limits one's ability to use the windlass on more than a single anchor rhode. We have a Maxwell VWC 1200 that hauls as strongly in one direction as the other and can service bowrollers on either side of the stem (or the capstan, lines in any direction).

FWIW...

[St. Elsewhere]

Originally Posted by roverhi

I don't know if it is my Lewmar Ocean Concept 1 winch or common to vertical windlasses but the chain jams when I let it freefall. The centrifugal force of the chain whirling around the capstan throws it off the capstan and the chain jams against the side of the windlass. Consequently, I always power mine down which has worked fine.

If the clutch is applied (assuming that the Lewmar is so equipped) as soon as the "free-fall" is initiated, the anchor drop is fast, but controlled so that tension on the chain will keep it feeding over the gypsy properly. It will also mitigate the issue of chain knocking about in the chain locker, and damaging anything it may contact.

[SvenG]

Originally Posted by Eleebana

Thanks for the comments so far but I'm still in the dark as to the ability of the horozontal windlass to to pull chain in off either roller since the gypsy can only be aligned with one of them. Any comments?

Our horizontal windlass is close enough to the anchor roller so that you could only pull chain over the roller it is aligned with (the only one installed). What's more is that the non-chain drum on the other side of the windlass really can't be used for anything unless we remove other deck fittings and install a second roller. Some pics of our beautiful antique are here: http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...tml#post533466

I like the fact that our windlass is manual but if we were starting from scratch I'd go with a vertical one.




-Sven

[Pblais]

Greg,

I can pull from either anchor roller without problem. I like a horizontal windlass. You align the gypsy to the center of the bow between both rollers. You need some distance from the roller to the gypsy.

Contrary to other posts. The windlass is not for kedging or warping. It's an electric motor and should be fused with a heat sensitive breaker that will pop and can be manually reset. The load on the motor and the amp load on the wires can get very high doing stupid pulling tricks. Kedging with a windlass is the best way to trash one. A windlass is to lift the chain only not pull your boat. If you can get a unit rated to 700 lbs you should find it suitable. You don't break out the anchor with a windlass either. You raise the chain until you see the chain lose slack, then snub the chain and have the helmsman put the boat in forward just enough to break the anchor free and only then pull in the remaining chain. Never put a static load on the windlass. Snub it off when anchored. A properly snubbed rode will not rip out the windlass from the deck nor damage your boat in a serious blow.

If you are building the boat you'll want a proper wash down pump and hose so you can wash the chain off as you bring it back to the locker. Many places you won't need it but when you get into sticky mud, it will make a thick complete coating over all the chain that was laying on the bottom.

I've got an old Lewmar now and it sucks but not because it is horizontal. My last boat had a Vetus Alex III and was very nice. It should power the chain up and down as I hate a free fall windlass. You can get a dual gypsy on some. Personally, I prefer all chain all the the time.