What's the problem with my windlass?

[SV__Grace]

Got a perplexing problem that has developed with my Lofrans Tigres windlass- it works as normal for most of raising the anchor then cuts off.

When it cuts off I hear a click in response to the foot switch or remote.

If I start using the handle to manually continue it will start working again eventually.

Before I start chasing this down and taking things apart I'd appreciate some feedback about what the problem might be. Thanks!

[rslifkin]

First step is to check all of the connections to make sure one isn't getting hot and losing connectivity. If the connections are good, next time it acts up, immediately get a volt meter on the solenoid outputs while someone hits the switch. If you've got power at the solenoid output, then the issue is likely with the windlass. If there's low voltage at the solenoid output, I'd suspect the contacts in the solenoid.

[SV__Grace]

Thanks so much for this rslifkin, it gives me a good place to start, so here's the progress so far, pretty interesting-

At anchor I removed the chain from the windlass for testing, tightened all the lugs, etc. where the power meets the solenoid (inside the V berth area, no corrosion), and tested the solenoid and input and output is fine without load on the windlass.

After working the windlass up and down a few times it cut off again! The clicking is the solenoid, power at solenoid continues to be fine.

Went to the bow and manually moved the gypsy/drum and it worked again, then cut off again. Got the bright idea to tighten the clutch and got it to work without cutting off (so far).


I'm not sure how the tightness of the clutch impacts the windlass working or not. Could the problem be as simple as the clutch wasn't tight enough?

Originally Posted by rslifkin

First step is to check all of the connections to make sure one isn't getting hot and losing connectivity. If the connections are good, next time it acts up, immediately get a volt meter on the solenoid outputs while someone hits the switch. If you've got power at the solenoid output, then the issue is likely with the windlass. If there's low voltage at the solenoid output, I'd suspect the contacts in the solenoid.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

Thanks so much for this rslifkin, it gives me a good place to start, so here's the progress so far, pretty interesting-

At anchor I removed the chain from the windlass for testing, tightened all the lugs, etc. where the power meets the solenoid (inside the V berth area, no corrosion), and tested the solenoid and input and output is fine without load on the windlass.

After working the windlass up and down a few times it cut off again! The clicking is the solenoid, power at solenoid continues to be fine.

Went to the bow and manually moved the gypsy/drum and it worked again, then cut off again. Got the bright idea to tighten the clutch and got it to work without cutting off (so far).


I'm not sure how the tightness of the clutch impacts the windlass working or not. Could the problem be as simple as the clutch wasn't tight enough?

The clutch being loose could cause it to slip excessively and not retrieve, but I can't see that causing the motor to cut out.

[wrwakefield]

I would guess that the motor brushes might be a contributing factor to the symptoms you have described. [Weak brush spring(s); worn brush(es); loose brush contact(s) that overheats; dirty commutator; etc.]

I say this because it sounds like you have already ruled out insufficient voltage and current, the solenoid and relay, and also motor overheating (if it has a self-resetting thermistor) since it also cut out under no load.

I would inspect/ clean/ replace the brushes if nothing else is evident.

Just a guess as I am not first hand familiar with the Tigress windlass.

Their manual does indicate they use a motor with brushes, so any automobile starter rebuild shop should be able to service the motor as well.

Wishing you a quick resolution!

Cheers, Bill

[SV__Grace]

Thanks for this Bill! As a next step I opened up the motor housing where the brushes are (which can be done without removing the motor, which requires removing the windlass from the deck, draining the oil, etc, etc, a last resort) and there was a lot of black dust accumulated in there.

Blew out the dust and removed one of the brushes- it looked really good and the commutator (if that's the right term) that it sits on looks clean.

Before doing so I was able to duplicate the problem by removing the chain and start/stopping a bunch of times until it wouldn't work, which was easily/termporarily fixed by moving/rotating the windlass gypsy just a bit. So it seems there is one spot somewhere in the motor that a connection is not happening or intermittent.

Got any ideas about the cause of that? Probably requires rebuilding or replacing the motor, a hard thing to do from Desolation Sound where we are now!

Crossing fingers that simply cleaning out the dirty brush area made a difference, but skeptical at this point- would be too easy!

Originally Posted by wrwakefield

I would guess that the motor brushes might be a contributing factor to the symptoms you have described. [Weak brush spring(s); worn brush(es); loose brush contact(s) that overheats; dirty commutator; etc.]

I say this because it sounds like you have already ruled out insufficient voltage and current, the solenoid and relay, and also motor overheating (if it has a self-resetting thermistor) since it also cut out under no load.

I would inspect/ clean/ replace the brushes if nothing else is evident.

Just a guess as I am not first hand familiar with the Tigress windlass.

Their manual does indicate they use a motor with brushes, so any automobile starter rebuild shop should be able to service the motor as well.

Wishing you a quick resolution!

Cheers, Bill

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

Thanks for this Bill! As a next step I opened up the motor housing where the brushes are (which can be done without removing the motor, which requires removing the windlass from the deck, draining the oil, etc, etc, a last resort) and there was a lot of black dust accumulated in there.

Blew out the dust and removed one of the brushes- it looked really good and the commutator (if that's the right term) that it sits on looks clean.

Before doing so I was able to duplicate the problem by removing the chain and start/stopping a bunch of times until it wouldn't work, which was easily/termporarily fixed by moving/rotating the windlass gypsy just a bit. So it seems there is one spot somewhere in the motor that a connection is not happening or intermittent.

Got any ideas about the cause of that? Probably requires rebuilding or replacing the motor, a hard thing to do from Desolation Sound where we are now!

Crossing fingers that simply cleaning out the dirty brush area made a difference, but skeptical at this point- would be too easy!

The dust can and will cause all sorts of problems hope all works good now .
Hauling manually all season doesn't sound fun for your boats tackle .

[wrwakefield]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

Thanks for this Bill! As a next step I opened up the motor housing where the brushes are (which can be done without removing the motor, which requires removing the windlass from the deck, draining the oil, etc, etc, a last resort) and there was a lot of black dust accumulated in there.

Blew out the dust and removed one of the brushes- it looked really good and the commutator (if that's the right term) that it sits on looks clean.

Before doing so I was able to duplicate the problem by removing the chain and start/stopping a bunch of times until it wouldn't work, which was easily/termporarily fixed by moving/rotating the windlass gypsy just a bit. So it seems there is one spot somewhere in the motor that a connection is not happening or intermittent.

Got any ideas about the cause of that? Probably requires rebuilding or replacing the motor, a hard thing to do from Desolation Sound where we are now!

Crossing fingers that simply cleaning out the dirty brush area made a difference, but skeptical at this point- would be too easy!

I'm crossing my fingers for you too...

If cleaning things up didn't help, double check that the wire/contact on each brush is making full contact.

The symptoms you describe can be caused by a non-conductive spon on the armature [brush not connected electrically- can be field repairable... use silver solder for higer heat connections; or a broken wire connnecting to one or more of the contacts on the commutator - where the brushes make contact to the armature. This would likely require a motor repair shop if you can't silver solder in the field... I did repair an alternator this way once long ago... it is still running...]

It sounds like at the very least that for now you can urge it one once it stops by giving it a nudge manually... [Perhaps better than hauling manually?]

My next stop would be a motor repair/rebuild stop if cleaning/ inspecting brushes and commutator don't do the trick...

Fingers crossed.

Cheers, Bill

PS: The carbon dust from brushes is conductive and can bridge between commutator contacts- causing the symptoms you are experiencing... hopefully a good clean- and possible polishing of commutator with very fine emory cloth- will do the trick!

[Auklet]

I wrestled with a similar problem (same symptoms) for years with my Simpson Lawrence 1000 windlass. Ultimately, I tracked the problem to bad connections leading from the battery cable to the windlass motor. For example, some wire corrosion, broken strands, and loose connection. I rewired from the terminus of the battery cable (installing terminal block between cable and motor wires) to the motor wires. Not difficult electrical work but difficult access, etc. I have not seen the problem reoccur now for several years.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Auklet

I wrestled with a similar problem (same symptoms) for years with my Simpson Lawrence 1000 windlass. Ultimately, the problem was tracked to bad connections leading from the battery cable to the windlass motor. For example, some wire corrosion, broken strands, and loose connection. I rewired from the terminus of the battery cable to the motor wires. Not difficult electrical work but difficult access, etc. I have not seen the problem reoccur now for several years.

Just traced out similar issue on customers boat yesterday traced back to the " factory" ring terminal for the ground lead to the battery connection . Was not properly swaged and crimped causing intermittent ground fault . Thankfull6 was a quick fix but took 2 hours of tracing to find that one problem.

[Bellinghamster]

Sounds like dirty commutator symptoms, but could be heat related intermittent winding, failing solenoid contacts or a loose connection.
Clip a voltmeter to the terminals on the windlass and watch the voltage while it's running and cuts out. If the voltage drops (i.e. from 10-12 to <5) then the problem is wiring or solenoids. If the voltage stays high when the motor stops then it's motor winding, brushes or commutator.

I've had 3 boats with Tigress windlasses and think they're great, but did have one problem similar to yours - had just let out all 300ft of 3/8 chain for a 100ft deep anchoring attempt, couldn't get it to set, and when I went to pull it up the motor stopped. (That was a LOT of chain to crank in manually! clickclick, clickclick, repeat ~600 times!). The problem turned out to be one of the wiring connection studs on the motor had snapped off (someone before me had apparently overtightened it). I was able to make one out of a bronze bolt with hacksaw and file, desolder the old and solder the new onto the winding with a small torch.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by wrwakefield

The carbon dust from brushes is conductive and can bridge between commutator contacts- causing the symptoms you are experiencing... hopefully a good clean- and possible polishing of commutator with very fine emory cloth- will do the trick!

I do think this was the problem. After cleaning out the carbon dust I've successfully raised anchor twice, both from deep anchorages with 400 feet of chain deployed and grateful to have a working windlass again!

Thanks for all your help!

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

I do think this was the problem. After cleaning out the carbon dust I've successfully raised anchor twice, both from deep anchorages with 400 feet of chain deployed and grateful to have a working windlass again!

Thanks for all your help!

Thanks for the update

[Jon Hacking]

We LOVE our Tigres, & have used it constantly for more than 20 years of liveaboard cruising, but it had some electrical problems early on.

One was that the brushes didn't want to slide down their tracks very far, & would sometimes jam & lose contact with the commutator. This would cause the other 2 brushes to take all the load, which would make the winch slow down (there were actually 2 circuits in that 1Kw motor, & I suspect it's the same with the 1,500W motor).

My solution to this was to remove all the brushes & just sand them a tiny bit thinner, using sandpaper taped to something flat, so they'd slide all the way down their tracks. Problem solved.

We've also used our Tigres enough that we've worn the commutators down, causing the winch to not work at all (in a very deep anchorage, in a current, at dusk, & we still had a ways to go to a safe anchorage, of course!) So after hauling the anchor up by hand(!), we took out the rotor & gave it to a machine-shop to dress up the commutators, an easy task for them.

But for the winch to not continue after stopping sounds suspiciously like a (single) open winding on the rotor. This is more difficult to track down, as you have to remove the back of the motor to get at the commutators, & then use a voltmeter to measure the resistance of each winding. Each winding will come back to a pair of commutator segments, on opposite sides of the commutator. If the winding's connection to its commutator is open, this is usually relatively easy to fix (& the most common). But if the winding is broken internally, this usually requires a complete rewind job on the rotor, as the break will be buried under other windings, & it's usually easier (& cheaper) to simply buy a new motor.

The fact that it runs normally once it starts, & that it can be re-started by jiggling it a bit, means that it's spinning past that dead winding by inertia once it's going. This is OK, but it puts more load on that next winding, so the problem can get worse with time.

I hope I'm wrong here, but this is the only thing I can think of that could cause all of your problems.

Good luck!

[SV Confianza]

Probably a good time to replace the brushes as well. I've found that when our motors are starting to quit because of carbon buildup, they'll quit again a few months later. Replacing the brushes has always solved the problem more permanently.