Which Spare Anchor ?

[SVNeko]

Originally Posted by akio.kanemoto

Well, the FX-37 will definitely fit while bagged, so assuming that the deployment is "planned", everything should be fine.

I keep an FX85 in a bag in a lazarette as a storm anchor. To assemble it, all you need is to secure the two nuts that hold the flukes onto the shank. A simple tip is to buy two cheap crescent wrenches in the right size and stow them with the anchor. Don't need to be rummaging around for a wrench when you need to deploy it.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by akio.kanemoto

Unfortunately, there is a limit to what I can upsize. Being racing boat, it didn't even originally come with a bow roller... So I had to have a roller fabricated.. but the bow, being very narrow, meant that I had to have a VERY long bow roller (approx 1.2m/4ft).. and all through bolted etc etc... and had to incorporate the forestay chainplate as well... all in all, my bow roller alone weighs 25kg.

Then there's the windlass @ 30kg... Then there's the rode... 70m of 8mm (5/16") chain... @ 110kg... and then the anchor...

So including the anchor, I have added about 200kg of weight to the bow, which didn't exist before... and the boat is definitely down on it's lines at the bow already.. :\

When I replace my primary rocna - I could conceivably go to 25kg (or perhaps a 22kg Sarca excel? Or 25kg Manson Boss?) ..but not much more than that.

What weight were you thinking anyway?

The other thing is that the bow roller was fabricated to fit the rocna 20kg perfectly... I REALLY hope the Manson/Sarca/something else also fits... :\



Last night at my mooring, I had 30kn for a few hours, which was quite impressive.. my first time and this is definitely making me think about this issue.

The other thing is that the boat sails around at anchor, so there is some side load as welll..

A larger primary anchor provides protection 100% of the time.



Just out of curiosity - what weight is your plough?



.

You are obviously thinking about the problem. All boats have compromises and we have to work around them. In your situation I think all you can do is exactly what you are doing, fit a large an anchor as possible and accept there will be some need for tandem anchoring on occasions.

Its probably too late, but some ex racing boats get over the problem by fitting a Chain locker much further back so the weight does not effect the bow.
Most of the weight is in the chain , not the anchor.
The other possibility is to go for G70 chain. This is stronger and the size can usually be reduced (although I do not think 6mm is an option for a 40 foot boat even in G70) .Boats that can reduce the size of your chain by 1 step can double the size of their anchor and still reduce weight.


I have a 55Kg Rocna (121 lb) on a 47 foot boat , so can see I practice what I preach. This has never dragged in 2 years. When I bought the boat it had an 80lb plough. In winter we usually get at least one day at anchor over 50Knots (47 forecast tomorrow for example at the local airport which is inland and force 9 on the marine forecast. We are redoing our antifouling so on the hard at the moment so I don’t think we will drag. Boats do fall over in their cradle here in Med so I think I would feel safer at anchor )
The plough regularly dragged in these winds. ( it never dragged once in winds below 35Knots, but also never held in wind speeds that were averaging above 45 knots)

[s/v Jedi]

Okay, I might not been keeping attention up here enough... is this about a second anchor at the bow?! If so, don't do that; put all the weight you can handle up there in a big primary anchor while keeping a spare elsewhere further aft.

Jedi has a very fine bow making it a problem to store much weight there (with her 64' on a different scale but exact same principle). Like mentioned already, it's possible to move weight aft:


We also have a 3/8" G7 chain instead of 1/2" G4. But the anchor is 176 pounds / 80kg.

Then your side loading. Make sure of two things; first is how to connect the chain to he anchor. Do not, I repeat not, buy fancy shiny stainless anchor connectors. Not even when manufacturers or dealers come here to try to ridicule this statement. Buy components like these:

These are cheaper too, but you will need an enlarged end-link on your chain which increases cost a bit again.

Second thing is to reduce the sailing behind the anchor. You need to reduce windage forward and/or increase it aft. Examples: remove jib from furler and install small riding sail on backstay. These are very effective measures and you can eliminate the behaviour you see now.


cheers,
Nick.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by akio.kanemoto

Yes, in Australia. What are your thoughts about sizing in that respect?

Also - the reason for the Spade was that it's collapsible, storing another plough type of anchor as a backup is not easy to do unfortunately.

If you have the Ben Lexcen 40 IOR One-Tonner, it's a pretty light boat that only gains decent waterline when heeled. IORs were racing rule-benders, not necessarily great offshore boats, so your desire to keep weight out of the ends is quite legitimate.

In terms of chain, I would consider putting it as far aft as possible and right under the sole. Pull it forward as needed into the chain locker with a small line and attach to an anchor you keep in the settee near the mast base or compression post. I have a 1973 IOR-influenced racer myself, and that's been my experience. I have my chain and rode in a bucket bolted to the bulkhead of the anchor locker, low and centered. It's the best I can do, but it's not what I'd have in a proper blow in an anchorage or if I was at sea and not in Lake Ontario. I can take some "less ideal practices" that you shouldn't.

Now that I've seen the boat, I'm not convinced a Sarca is for you, unless you are willing to stow it below and only carry it on the bow prepatory to using it. You don't want the weight there at all. Maybe a Fortress is the answer as a primary because even a large one is a fraction of the weight of a galvanised anchor.

Super SARCA Anchor No 5 - Galvanised Anchors - anchorright.com.au

Seems about right.

Also, the suggestion for a backstay mounted riding sail to reduce "hunting" at anchor is appropriate for almost all boats, but particularly so for "pinched stern" IOR designs. I use a hank-on No. 4 that I reeve to the mainsheet and flatten. Works like a charm and the "wander" is significantly decreased, which also helps a lot in keeping the anchor put.

[akio.kanemoto]

Thank you all for your replies again!

Originally Posted by SVNeko

I keep an FX85 in a bag in a lazarette as a storm anchor. To assemble it, all you need is to secure the two nuts that hold the flukes onto the shank. A simple tip is to buy two cheap crescent wrenches in the right size and stow them with the anchor. Don't need to be rummaging around for a wrench when you need to deploy it.

Thanks for the tip, I will be sure to do that.

Originally Posted by noelex 77

You are obviously thinking about the problem. All boats have compromises and we have to work around them. In your situation I think all you can do is exactly what you are doing, fit a large an anchor as possible and accept there will be some need for tandem anchoring on occasions.

On this note - what are your thoughts about tandem versus dual anchoring (not sure of terminology here, but by "tandem" I mean, one rode from the boat, goes to the anchor and another anchor is connected to the first anchor by a length of short chain. By "dual", I mean one rode from the boat to a "y", and then two short chain lengths from the "Y" to two separate anchors)

Its probably too late, but some ex racing boats get over the problem by fitting a Chain locker much further back so the weight does not effect the bow.

Actually this was the plan initially, to bring it back to the mast step, but things got complicated and I would have lost the only permanently usable double berth. :\

Most of the weight is in the chain , not the anchor.
The other possibility is to go for G70 chain. This is stronger and the size can usually be reduced (although I do not think 6mm is an option for a 40 foot boat even in G70) .Boats that can reduce the size of your chain by 1 step can double the size of their anchor and still reduce weight.

I dream of G70 chain. The problem in Australia is availability - imagine a country where almost nothing is available and anything that is available is double the price. My entire refit was supplied from the US!

As for chain, I spend almost a year looking for G70 and it simply is not available in Australia (galvanized), the industry here touts "Grade L" (G30) as the "best of the best" here because they're stupid, and anything else is deemed "unsuitable".

I eventually found the Maggi G70 chain in NZ at "Ropes Chains and Anchors" and was going to ship that.. but they didn't have any single length over 50m, and after waiting a YEAR for their new container to arrive, I gave up.

In the end, I eventually managed to find one company on the other side of the country selling "Grade P" (G43) and paid a fortune for it - but that's my chain saga. 8mm (5/16") G43 it is.

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Okay, I might not been keeping attention up here enough... is this about a second anchor at the bow?! If so, don't do that; put all the weight you can handle up there in a big primary anchor while keeping a spare elsewhere further aft.

No, not a second anchor at the bow - I agree with you - I don't like it.

The original question was about a backup for my primary if it goes AWOL - something that it easy to stow, but is a resettable type as opposed to a directional anchor.

The only thing that fits the bill it seems is the Spade, but I just can't justify $800 to ship it here. I mean, I've paid some outrageous shipping costs (like $70 for a single pressure vessel endcap for my watermaker!) - but there are limits to my stupidity.

Then your side loading. Make sure of two things; first is how to connect the chain to he anchor. Do not, I repeat not, buy fancy shiny stainless anchor connectors. Not even when manufacturers or dealers come here to try to ridicule this statement. Buy components like these:

These are cheaper too, but you will need an enlarged end-link on your chain which increases cost a bit again.

If enlarged endlinks were available, I would definitely done this, but again, there is an availability problem in Australia. :\

I found one outfit who would give me a single enlarged endlink, but for 10mm Grade L (G30!) chain, and I would have to buy a stupid amount of it.

So my solution has been to use Van Beest Green Pin shackles (thankfully at least we had those here!) and I've used their 10mm shackle, which fits the 8mm chain and is rated at 750kg WLL, but has a BLL of 4500kg. So I figure the Rocna will turn into a pretzel and the chain will break before the shackle goes. Any thoughts on my logic here?

As for fitting a swivel like you have - my only option would be to use two shackles back-to-back to make a hole large enough. ay one 10mm shackle and a 13mm. Any thoughts there?

Second thing is to reduce the sailing behind the anchor. You need to reduce windage forward and/or increase it aft. Examples: remove jib from furler and install small riding sail on backstay. These are very effective measures and you can eliminate the behaviour you see now.


cheers,
Nick.

I will order something like this then - is there a rule of thumb for sail area? Also - I've read two theories - one is to sheet it flat midships and the other is to sheet is off to one side. What's your religion?

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

If you have the Ben Lexcen 40 IOR One-Tonner, it's a pretty light boat that only gains decent waterline when heeled. IORs were racing rule-benders, not necessarily great offshore boats, so your desire to keep weight out of the ends is quite legitimate.

I'm not quite sure what it is to tell you the truth. I know it's a Ben Lexcen and I know it's a 40ft design and I know it's from mid 1980's and built by a "K. Revell", and possibly launched as "Dynasty" but that's it.

Here's a pic of it prior to my tender ministrations (attached).

In terms of chain, I would consider putting it as far aft as possible and right under the sole. Pull it forward as needed into the chain locker with a small line and attach to an anchor you keep in the settee near the mast base or compression post. I have a 1973 IOR-influenced racer myself, and that's been my experience. I have my chain and rode in a bucket bolted to the bulkhead of the anchor locker, low and centered. It's the best I can do, but it's not what I'd have in a proper blow in an anchorage or if I was at sea and not in Lake Ontario. I can take some "less ideal practices" that you shouldn't.

I have no bilge or sole to speak of, but I was planning on removing the anchor altogether when going offshore and strapping it down on a rubber pad in the shower.

Now that I've seen the boat, I'm not convinced a Sarca is for you, unless you are willing to stow it below and only carry it on the bow prepatory to using it. You don't want the weight there at all. Maybe a Fortress is the answer as a primary because even a large one is a fraction of the weight of a galvanised anchor.

Super SARCA Anchor No 5 - Galvanised Anchors - anchorright.com.au

Seems about right.

Are you sure you linked the correct one? That one is only 14.8kg and my rocna pretzel is already 20kg.

Also, the suggestion for a backstay mounted riding sail to reduce "hunting" at anchor is appropriate for almost all boats, but particularly so for "pinched stern" IOR designs. I use a hank-on No. 4 that I reeve to the mainsheet and flatten. Works like a charm and the "wander" is significantly decreased, which also helps a lot in keeping the anchor put.

Yep, I have the pinched stern alright. Do you sheet it along the centerline or to a toerail etc?

[s/v Jedi]

I don't need a riding sail (ketch rig) but I would just try out how to rig the riding sail. You can also experiment with the height you hoist it.

About the large end-links; is there no chain manufacturer there? I just specify it when I order from ACCO chain.
Alternatively you can ask a metal workshop to put them on and just paint them.

cheers,
Nick.

[akio.kanemoto]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

About the large end-links; is there no chain manufacturer there? I just specify it when I order from ACCO chain.
Alternatively you can ask a metal workshop to put them on and just paint them.

cheers,
Nick.

There is a chain maufacturer here, but in Australia, you can't get anybody to do anything non-standard - I spoke to them (PWB Anchor) and they wanted me to buy a 500kg drum and they would only do it on Grade L (G30). :\

There is also the option of buying G70 "transport chain" (bright yellow plating) and have it galvanized, but I'm positive that the galvanizers here would destroy the chain.

So failing that - any thoughts on back to back shackles?

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by akio.kanemoto

So failing that - any thoughts on back to back shackles?

I would just order it from ACCO then and ship ocean freight. Also, I found G70 connectors that pass the windlass (I have a vertical windlass).

I think G70 chain is always that gold coated transport chain. I used to special order it hot dip galvanized but think that ACCO is now selling it ready to go. The connectors I found are gold and I cold-galvanize them.

Two shackles back to back is okay, no problem.

cheers,
Nick.

[Jim Cate]

G'Day again AK,

Here's something to think about: all the talk about the disastrous results of having an extra 10 or 20 kg on the bow... or even 30 or 40! In our experience, consisting of an early IOR one tonner with a pretty fine bow, and now a Sayer design with an even finer one, that amount of weight, while perhaps theoretically a bad idea, does not seem to cause any horrible behavior. In both of these boats we've carried 80+ metres of 10 mm chain and 20-30 kg anchors, all way forward (like actually just behind the stem). Between those boats we've managed about 125,000 miles, and have not foundered yet. The IOR boat was low freeboard and would go through the odd steep wave... but she did that when we were still racing her and she was still on her original lines with no anchor on the bow.

So, here's a suggestion: when you have sorted out your basic sailing parameters and are comfortable on the boat, try temporarily sticking some weight up in the pointy end and seeing what really happens. I suspect that you will not be able to tell the difference, and some of your worries might well vanish. In particular, I bet that an extra 10 kg of anchor will make no difference whatsoever.

Cheers,

Jim

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by akio.kanemoto

On this note - what are your thoughts about tandem versus dual anchoring (not sure of terminology here, but by "tandem" I mean, one rode from the boat, goes to the anchor and another anchor is connected to the first anchor by a length of short chain. By "dual", I mean one rode from the boat to a "y", and then two short chain lengths from the "Y" to two separate anchors)



?

I am not a great fan of either, but I think tandem anchoring is better, make sure you have a reasonable length of chain between the 2 anchors. The problem with dual anchors is that the load is primarily on one anchor, so the holding power is not increased substantially. If you want to limit swing, or point into the swell dual anchors are useful, but to increase the holding power I think this set up has limited value.

Originally Posted by akio.kanemoto

I dream of G70 chain. The problem in Australia is availability

I am from Australia so I sympathize. I have ordered some G70 chain from Italy. I suspect the cost delivered to Australia would be expensive . but not exorbitant.

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by akio.kanemoto

Are you sure you linked the correct one? That one is only 14.8kg and my rocna pretzel is already 20kg.



Yep, I have the pinched stern alright. Do you sheet it along the centerline or to a toerail etc?

No, I'm not sure, because I can't find the specs on your boat online. It looks like it's IOR, alright. So perhaps it's a 1970s design not built until the '80s. I know the name Lexcen, but we rarely see them in this hemisphere.

As for the riding sail, I generally sheet it on the centreline. If you are having wind shifts that favour one side or the other, you could offset it a bit to compensate, I suppose, but basically the function is to resist lateral movement, like a fin keel in the air. That's why it needs to be tensioned flat.

[malbert73]

Interesting question the OP has about tandem anchoring if you predict a blow in one direction.
I have a 20kg bruce and 20 lb hi tensile danforth on my 33 footer, and was thinking about shackling a cable, chain, or high modulus line from the danforth to the trip eye on the bruce when I expect heavy wind. Anyone done that?

That would save me dragging my huge 45 lb danforth out of the locker. Most of what I currently anchor in is mud or sand.

[Bash]

Originally Posted by S/V Alchemy

No, I'm not sure, because I can't find the specs on your boat online. It looks like it's IOR, alright. So perhaps it's a 1970s design not built until the '80s. I know the name Lexcen, but we rarely see them in this hemisphere.

Ben Lexen was the Aussie bloke who invented the winged keel that help them steal the America's Cup.

[teejayevans]

Originally Posted by duncan_ellison

+1 on the FX-37, I use one as a backup to my 44lb Delta (45ft Hunter).

IMHO, you can't beat having a Danforth / Fortress type as well as a plough type, just in case you find that kind of bottom where a plough, well ... just ploughs.

+2, but the FX-37 is my (3rd) hurricane anchor, I have a FX-11 on the rail that is my 2nd to backup my 35lb Delta.
Tom

[teejayevans]

Originally Posted by malbert73

Interesting question the OP has about tandem anchoring if you predict a blow in one direction.
I have a 20kg bruce and 20 lb hi tensile danforth on my 33 footer, and was thinking about shackling a cable, chain, or high modulus line from the danforth to the trip eye on the bruce when I expect heavy wind. Anyone done that?

That would save me dragging my huge 45 lb danforth out of the locker. Most of what I currently anchor in is mud or sand.

I've never done tandem, but I thought you did NOT want to attach to trip eye (and risk tripping the anchor), but wanted to attach it to the regular shank eye, most are oblong so should give your room to have 2 shackles.
Tom