Why do we have electric anchor winches when they clearly do not work. Anchor winches

[Dsanduril]

Running the windlass without the alternator providing some output can be a bit hard on the batteries. Our windlass, at full load, takes about 0.2C, at typical load it is more like 0.1C, for 3-5 minutes depending on how much rode we have out. That works out to less than 1% SoC from the batteries.

The alternative it start up the engine(s) and run them for 5-10 minutes before shutting them down. That can be very hard on a diesel engine, not allowing it to get up to full operating temperature before shutting it down and letting it sit. My wallet would much rather replace my batteries (and even my windlass motor if it came to that) a little more frequently than it would my engine(s).

[Mauna Kea]

When I refitted my 48ft schooner, I found out that the company that produced the NORMAN windlasses did not exist anymore. I decided to convert my windlass to hydraulic based on the following rational:-
1. why draining the batteries when -anyway- you have to start the engine to get the alternator to assist the electric windlass
2. I have a 12V installation, that mean big cables over 12M long with associated heat build up and loss of voltage
3. the mechanical part of the windlass was not the problem, the electric motor was U/S
4. being in hydraulic, it was a natural choice to sort out the problem

You need to install a hydraulic pump on your engine. Some engine are manufactured with a reservation / PTO to install a pump, then a tank, then some valves and relief valve, and some hoses (at least X1 supply and X1 return, may be a 3rd one for the hydraulic motor case drain). I'd recommend to use S/S hose ends and what is called thermoplastic hoses (reinforcement in the hoses are fiber and not metal, that will save you any corrosion inside hoses).

I drive my hydraulic pump via a belt from the crankshaft, it is mounted on a bearing bloc with an electromagnetic on/off drive (very much like an A/C on a car). I have a switch by the companionway which I flick on to engage the pump. In a locker, by the helm, I have a manual valve so I can activate the windlass from the helm, or from a pendant at the windlass by the bow.

Apart from correct tensionning of the belt, had no issues at all, even when lifting a CQR 60 lbs in 35 knots headwind. I have set the pull force to 500Kg which seems to be plenty for me.

Other advantage, is that when you have hydraulics installed, you can eventually use it for other things which I am yet to explore (like driving a water desal', winches.

Good luck

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Fuss

...So why do we put up with this weakness. When clearly what we need is a self contained hydraulic one for a reasonable price.
Advantages are huge... just start the process, if the hydraulics are overloaded the winch stops, nothing burns out. You can pull up your anchor in all conditions, not just sunny days.
Of course we don’t want a huge pump and motor and oil tank making it far too expensive but if something was available that brought up my anchor at a 3rd of the speed of my 2kw, 1000kg winch, I would consider it.

Any ideas, anyone made a hydraulic one?

The thing, from my perspective, is that I am not interested in a well equipped ship with a lot of extra mechanical (or hydraulic) systems. You are talking about the pump, the oil reservoir, the hoses, all the rest of the falderal.

If your dream is a self sufficient ship, with every possible system, all over spec'd, and a walk around engine room which wows visitors. OK, I get it. But not me. I want light and efficient, and I spend my time sailing for fun not being an engineer.

[Palarran]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Running the windlass without the alternator providing some output can be a bit hard on the batteries. Our windlass, at full load, takes about 0.2C, at typical load it is more like 0.1C, for 3-5 minutes depending on how much rode we have out. That works out to less than 1% SoC from the batteries.

The alternative it start up the engine(s) and run them for 5-10 minutes before shutting them down. That can be very hard on a diesel engine, not allowing it to get up to full operating temperature before shutting it down and letting it sit. My wallet would much rather replace my batteries (and even my windlass motor if it came to that) a little more frequently than it would my engine(s).

We have a large bank (1050ah) so the 1700 watt windlass doesn't dent it at all. Figure the inverter at 3000w is much harder on it.

[Dsanduril]

Full disclosure, hadn't thought about it much until the posts up above, the total cable distance from the battery terminals to the windlass motor on our boat is less than 2m (one-way) including connections to the breaker, solenoid, etc. That makes a huge difference compared with things like the 12m quoted above. Maybe it is a catamaran thing when we have the windlass located near the center of the boat rather than way up on the bow.

[David B]

Originally Posted by Fuss

It’s a safety issue for critical equipment.
So, let’s install an electric anchor winch. We do the research, we choose an oversize one that is far too powerful for our boat and we install.
We read a few threads on here about technique and we learn that we should never pull our boat up to the anchor using the windlass or it might burn out or whatever....(really who would design such a delicate system for such critical equipment, especially when you anchor is too heavy to bring in by hand).
Apart from this minor inconvenience, It works great.
Oh look, there’s a big wind now and it wakes us up, I think we have to move, get up get up, it’s raining too.
S**** those waves are big too, what did you say, I can’t see your hand signals, I said, I can’t see your hand signals, port, no starboard, stop , stop.
There’s a bad smell like burning coming from the windlass, is it ok.

So why do we put up with this weakness. When clearly what we need is a self contained hydraulic one for a reasonable price.
Advantages are huge... just start the process, if the hydraulics are overloaded the winch stops, nothing burns out. You can pull up your anchor in all conditions, not just sunny days.
Of course we don’t want a huge pump and motor and oil tank making it far too expensive but if something was available that brought up my anchor at a 3rd of the speed of my 2kw, 1000kg winch, I would consider it.

Any ideas, anyone made a hydraulic one?

Never had an issue with an electric windlass. Your ear will tell you when it is working hard, and the shear-pin will protect the gears. Motor - thermal cut-out.

We have a hydraulic autohelm, but can't imagine a hydraulic windlass on a boat size we could afford.

[CassidyNZ]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Engine running and amps running in aren't they?

My anchor winch runs on its own battery up front which has heat-protected thin charge lines from the engine room. If the front battery gets low and the winch starts to draw juice from the batteries in the engine room, the heat switch opens the circuit to prevent the charge lines from overheating.

So if I drain the front battery too quickly, the winch runs out of juice even with the engine producing 100’s of charge amps.

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by CassidyNZ

My anchor winch runs on its own battery up front which has heat-protected thin charge lines from the engine room. If the front battery gets low and the winch starts to draw juice from the batteries in the engine room, the heat switch opens the circuit to prevent the charge lines from overheating.

So if I drain the front battery too quickly, the winch runs out of juice even with the engine producing 100’s of charge amps.

Which is one of the key reasons why you should not have a battery forward. The other reasons are: Having all that battery weight forward where there is a lot of boat motion, adding to the imbalance of weight on the ends on the boat, another battery to maintain and not being able to operate the windlass repeatedly when you may have to.

It would be far better to power your windlass from your house bank and have supplemental power available from your alternator and/or generator. Heavy wire is less weight than that extra battery and only has to be paid for once - it should never have to be replaced. For example: My windlass wiring was installed in 1991 and it is still good. How many times have you or would you have to replace that battery in nearly 30 years?

[seandepagnier]

even low-spec lithium batteries can easily supply 1C discharge rate, many can do 5C or higher. Not sure why anyone uses lead acid since lithium batteries cost less these days. I think maybe the same reason people pay for chart plotters when the free software is a lot better.



For electric motors it makes sense to use roughly the same voltage as current for best efficiency. So for 12 volts, the motor should not use more than 20 amps, if it does, it makes more sense you use a 24 volt motor, and this will cut down on wiring losses a lot.

[Cheechako]

A) hydraulic windlasses are complex and are usually leaking somewhere in the motor, valves or line fittings at any give time. I have installed them and used them.
B) The motor must be running to use a hydraulic system. While we usually run a motor when pulling anchor anyway. What if you need to get out of an anchorage and the motor wont start?
C) So both systems have potential "cons".
D) People are too sensitive about "overworking an electric windlass". But yes, if it's blowing 30 and you have wind waves of 3 feet, use the engine to motor over the anchor!
E) In calm water a good windlass has no problem at all pulling to boat up to the the anchor. If you just give the windlass a nudge or two, the boat flows right forward readily, slack in the chain.
F) I have had 5 boats with electric windlasses. One I installed was new. The other 4 were on the boat, old and used. NONE ever failed in proper use.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by Cheechako

D) People are too sensitive about "overworking an electric windlass". But yes, if it's blowing 30 and you have wind waves of 3 feet, use the engine to motor over the anchor!

I've been in conditions where I could not pull the anchor line at all from too much wind, and the boat was getting knocked down in gusts and filling the cockpit at anchor.


Putting the main on the 3rd reef and sheeting it tight I was able to pull anchor. Don't use the engine to motor over the anchor: use the main sail!

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

Don't use the engine to motor over the anchor: use the main sail!

Guess it'll be impossible for me to get my anchor up

Oh wait.........

[Cheechako]

Originally Posted by Benz

Have you never been in an anchorage where a weather change made it untenable (wind shift, swell beginning) and safety required that you move in the middle of the night? I have, more than once--it's not bad seamanship: it's what happens when you make passages, and arrive places at night, and are away from reliable weather forecasts. In short, it's part of cruising.
But I do have a manual windlass with which I can pull the boat up to the anchor in anything short of a gale. If blowing too hard, I motor up with the outboard

Yep, been blown out of an anchorage a few times. It's pretty harrowing in the dark, bow pitching up and down, chain snubbing up bar tight while you try to retrieve,,, etc.
One reason I always take an "exit bearing" once anchored so I can leave blind if necessary.

[GrowleyMonster]

I have to disagree on battery location. You don't save on wire by using the house bank or one of multiple house banks. You STILL need at least 2/0 cable to supply the windlass motor. You are actually better off with a bank forward, with a short supply run to the windlass motor. You SHOULD use nice big cable for charging that bank but if you insist, well, you could go down a size or two, as long as the bank is big enough to heave the anchor by itself. When you draw down the bank too much, break out the handle and start pumping.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by seandepagnier

even low-spec lithium batteries can easily supply 1C discharge rate, many can do 5C or higher. Not sure why anyone uses lead acid since lithium batteries cost less these days.

It depends where you are and what kind of lead acid batteries you get. In the USA flooded lead acid batteries are much less expensive for equivalent capacity. There is also the fact that boats set up for lead acid batteries require different or additional control systems. Though in some cases these are built into the battery case, they still add cost.

I think maybe the same reason people pay for chart plotters when the free software is a lot better.

I have looked extensively at OpenCPN, multiple versions over multiple years on multiple platforms, and find it to be a buggy, poorly supported project, with limited chart coverage, and with important features missing. There is also the inconvenient fact that few sunlight-viewable displays are available, fewer still with good all-weather touch screens. The result is an expensive science project that may or may not work once installed.