Yep - we dragged!

[Compass790]

I like to use tandem anchors on 1 rode EXCEPT when you expect 180o wind or current shifts. They can tangle. Danforth works well in mud except if stone or weed or some other junk clogs it.
I'm with the if ya aint dragged ya havent anchored much crowd. Use engine to test & set anchor alarm crowd too. In crowded anchorages with tandem anchors ya have to stay up on watch anyway as you are in danger from others dragging on to you.
Glad u survived the night

[JPA Cate]

Hi, SV Rocinante,

We, too, belong to the "have dragged in a 180 deg. windshift in a thunderstorm" club. As it happens, that was with a Bruce, which is now long gone. And, I am not familiar with your creek, but wanted to share something anyway.

You mentioned that you had been anchored there for 2 weeks. That's a lot of tide cycles. Anchored up the Brisbane river, we've seen the tide cycles wrap the rode around the anchor, and then it will quit holding with even a moderate puff. If anchoring in a tidal stream, and wanting to avoid the hassle of a Bahamian mooring, just re-set the anchor every 3 days or so...

Your Spade is a good anchor. And, as others have said, sometimes you need something special for your particular conditions. I would think, though, taking the Danforth out, in conjunction with the Spade could have worked for you, and stopped the dragging when it began, as long as you could motor off to the side of where the Spade was, and drop in the Danforth and lie to both in a sort of "V" or "Y". We have a very old 20# HT Danforth that we have done just that with, and it held in the soft mud just fine. Not saying your mud may not be softer, but in sustained 60's, the two (the other's a Manson Supreme--60#, boat 46', ~12 tonnes wet) held I-2 and we could relax.

PS. I hate night time dragging! It's always fraught, and it sounds like you handled the situation well. Good on ya.

Ann

[Gaia]

Many good replies here so will not add much. We left Canada 23 years ago and circumnavigated slowly almost always at anchor. We are now great believers in new age anchors, for us specifically Spade but we carry others like the FX55 and a (never used) Luke Fisherman.

Afew weeks ago while in Martinique and convincing a friend to buy either a Spade or a Rocna (he bought the Rocna) and looking for test articles to convince him, I came across a test article by Fortress in which they showed how Fortress anchors are the best. I, knowing from experience that this is not always the case, guffawed when I read they did all their testing in the Chesapeake!

I might agree with carrying a Danforth like anchor like the Fortress only if I was only ever to anchor in deep mud instead of all other types of conditions.

We use a Vesper Marine AIS which has a good anchor watch particularly if you can set it properly (ie when the anchor is first dropped. But having said that being caught in a really bad TC is survival mode time. All the chain and possibly kellets and use of the motor. Thankfully really bad conditions are rare and we have rarely dragged.

Btw we also sold our Bruce because tests showed that it sometimes does not reset well.

Jim sv GAIA

[S/V Alchemy]

Originally Posted by SVRocinante

Thank you boatman61

I’m a fan of lots of scope as well and have plenty of chain; unfortunately, even my 7:1 is a lot for the swing room in this area. If scope ends up being the root cuase, then my only option is to not anchor here again... we’ll see.

Well, depending on the nature of the wind shift, if you have warning of it (seeing Doppler radar online, or having your own radar capable of resolving it), you could switch on the engine to move toward the anchor to relieve the strain. Of course, that's fine for a 10-minute squall line passing over, less so if it's going to blow for hours 180 degrees from your set.

[RichandHelen]

You've undoubtedly seen this comment before but it is worth repeating. On two occasions our 25 kilo Rochna has set so well that when we experienced extreme winds (35++) even with 100' of chain out it literally pulled up a huge ball of seabed and dragged - without the ability to reset. The anchor held, the seabed didn't.

[chris95040]

Originally Posted by SVRocinante

As you suggested, had I not held when I originally backed down, I would have weighed anchor and tried again.

Glad nothing bad happened, sounds stressful!!!

Hey would you mind describing how you deployed and set the anchor? Did you back down hard or gentle, for how long, at what scope did you back down, etc etc.

These anecdotal accounts are all we really get for ‘data’, so its helpful (maybe?) to hear as much as possible about your gear and technique.

[NevisDog]

All very interesting replies, so thanks for starting this thread. Several mention a bahamian moor but that's not really practical when you anchored for 2 weeks. Besides, those modern 'miracle' anchors are designed to reset themselves, aren't they? But that only goes so far: 180 degree windshift gusting to 60 kts is not something to ever sit through and hope the superduper new-gen anchor can cope. Watch those videos by Panope (mentioned earlier); sometimes they spin around without letting go but if the shift really is 180 then they can somersault right over and then it's always gonna be a lottery if they reset before fouling (or reset at all in a soft mud skating rink at speed).

So, long story short, why not drop the fortress or danforth right there before the windshift and thunderstorm hits? (Check the expected veering/backing windshift direction so the rodes don't likely cross, though this ain't critical.) You had plenty of scope out on the bower so haul in half that scope and you are straight into a nice, gently set, bahamian moor, with the best one-directional mud-anchor now resting in the direction of the expected blow. Soon as the wind shifts, let out much more scope on the fortress/danforth; those things need a typhoon to shift them once they dig in. Then retrieve the mud-anchor when the storm passes over.

You can get more creative by motoring off to one side on your existing scope before letting go the kedge, to ensure no tangle once the windshift hits. Hardest part will be retrieving the mud-anchor - those fortresses sure know how to bury!

[hamburking]

I sometimes set two anchors (in a vee) off the bow. I had a lovely pair of matching bruce anchors.

Well placed, they immediately split the load in half. If one drags, the other usually digs in. I keep both rodes to the bow, so I'm still head to wind. "Tacking" at anchor is totally eliminated.

However, I usually find the 2 rodes very twisted up with each other in the morning, especially if there are wind shifts (like in the OP), or current vs wind conditions. Not a big deal, but if you need to make a quick getaway, especially when sailing solo, it can be a delay getting the lines sorted out.

Several times I've set 2 anchors off the bow in light airs, to the chagrin of the neigbouring boats...then later that night, when the wind picks up, I am SOOO glad. One time in particular, At Main Duck Island, I am sure this method saved my boat. I watched in pitch darkness while all the other boats were forced to leave during a storm during the night. I stayed put, and was fine. Sure, I still sat there in the cockpit, staring at my transits, the gps, the chartplotter, worrying, as we all have. A long night. But didn't drag an inch.

[GoAway]

In the interest of full disclosure, it would be nice to know what anchor you are using.

[boatman61]

Originally Posted by GoAway

In the interest of full disclosure, it would be nice to know what anchor you are using.

If you had read the thread you would know it was a Spade..

[hpeer]

A couple of thoughts.

After an embarassing number of dragging incidents, mostly my fault, I’ve gone with 125# Mantus on our 20ton boat.

That drug once because we muffed the set. The chain wrapped around the anchor. It “set” but worked out. My fault. But, as noted above, it might have happened to your spade when the tide shifted?

I also have a 66# spade on he bow and an FX-37 on the stern.

Spade is a good anchor but the have relatively little surface area to pound weight. So not a great mid anchor, especially soft mud, where you want lots of surface area. That’s why the danforths are so good in muck, high surface area to weight.

As noted doc as can “plug” with grass. I believe the Mantus is less prone to this because of the SIZE of the roll bar. Compare to the Rocna the diameter of the bar is much larger on the same weight anchor. Because the loop is so big it’s much harder to plug.

I sometimes single hand. Coming into an unfamiliar anchorage, late at night, tired after a day or two out, you can easily make all kinds of dumb mistakes because of the fatigue. I want an anchor that reduces my ability to shoot my foot off.

[philiosophy]

More chain better holding.

[foggysail]

Yes, we also dragged with a 180 wind shift using all chain attached to an 80# Manson Supreme on our Silverton 40. When I first told about the incident at another boating web site, others tried in vain to convince me that I must have done something wrong. That was followed by numerous attaboy posts for the Manson.

There are many videos showing how quickly these anchors reset to which I say, they reset sometimes and not at all at other times. When our failure occurred I happened to be at the helm and saw that we were quickly drifting away from others in a very crowded harbor.

Back to videos..... they do not show any resets of mud caked anchors and ours required cleaning using a boat hook to remove the mud. Since then I did purchase and have onboard an FX55 danforth style anchor still in the unopened box. I am unsure how the Fortress resets in a wind/current shift although it seems impossible for one to clog with mud. Open to comments/suggestions on the Fortress without a major hijacking in the OP’s thread.

[Mike Banks]

Always use a kellet

It will reduce the likelihood of your dragging an anchor--but it is not a complete fail-safe.

It works in two ways. As the chain tightens, the kellet lifts from the sea bed and reduces the shock of the chain tightening suddenly and dislodging an anchor. The second advantage is it effectively increases scope. A cast iron kettle weight makes a a useful kellet.

The anchor holding, all other things being equal, also depends on the ground in which your anchor is set. The holding power of some bottom structures is notoriously bad.

[Ferrari]

Not sure if the Banner Bay Delta Sail would have prevented your dragging, but it may well have.
Flown aft the two sided delta fin creates pressure on the windward side of the yacht, regardless of the wind direction.
Because the Delta (V shape) is secured port and starboard. The stern turns with the wind (not the bow which is usually the case, as the bow is lighter) and the bow always faces the wind. Varying only a few degrees as the wind shifts.
This prevents sailing / stalling from port to starboard on the anchor which is especially useful in tight anchorages.
Takes a few minutes to set up but I suggest it’s a must when anchoring for more than a couple of days.
Search Banner Bay Marine and You Tube for a video.
Good luck
F