Advice on Navigational Equipment

[Sunsetrider]

Originally Posted by Va2shp

Some confusing info. Cel capability is only good if you are within reach of a cell antena. If you are gone to use an IPAD you need a real GPS in your ipad or a gps that will interface with your IPAD as an example the Bad Elf GPS that you can buy from Fugawi https://www.fugawi.com/store/category/35, I am not trying to advertise anything, it just that I know it work.

To be a bit more precise: All internet-connection-capable ipads have built in gps, so no external gps is needed. The gps in these ipads give full nav capability on their own without an internet connection. I do not even have a SIM card in mine.

All wifi-only ipads need an external gps doohicky like Badelf as they do not have an internal gps antenna.

[grantmc]

My first thought would be to attend a training course on Coastal Navigation, and then select the gear armed with a little knowledge.
The brand/model doesn't make anyone a better navigator.

[Captainv40]

I was an early convert to electronic charts & navigation. Primarily used laptops for decades (MaxSea found best in those days) but more recently have made some use of chart plotters (Furuno & Simrad currently on my own boats). In choosing a plotter, I think most important consideration is availability & cost of complete, up-to-date, accurate digital charts (raster &/or vector) for areas you will be cruising.
For the past 3 years or so, I have made little use of plotters, since discovered that a mid-sized, cellular-enabled IPad satisfies my needs for both coastal and ocean passages. SEAiq, with free vector & raster charts easily updated for US waters, SEAiqOpen for international waters (free New Zealand raster charts for use where I am presently cruising), Nobeltec/MaxSea for West Coasts of Canada & Mexico where I also cruise (only source found for reasonably priced, complete & easily updated charts for those areas).

Chart plotters are ridiculously expensive and limited by proprietary charts that are not best for all areas. Make sense only if you are uncomfortable with computers and only plan to cruise a small geographic area. IPads (much better selection of nav apps than other tablets to date) have much more flexibility for multiple uses, good independent battery capacity with easy 12-volt recharging, portability, and better resolution than most plotters. While not waterproof, they are reasonably water resistant and can be protected by a secondary market cover (or a zip-lock bag) if you must use in a wet cockpit.

[Hickers]

For the record an iPad without cellular capability works perfectly running navionics when hooked up to a simrad mfd via go free WiFi. The navionics takes all the required depth and position data from the simrad system.

[nwdiver]

Originally Posted by Hickers

For the record an iPad without cellular capability works perfectly running navionics when hooked up to a simrad mfd via go free WiFi. The navionics takes all the required depth and position data from the simrad system.

I agree........people are mixing up the points.......and the people asking the questions

1) for a totally independent iPad based nav system the iPad MUST be cell driven to have an internal GPS
2) a wifi only iPad can easily talk to many chartplotters, but will not work if the primary goes down


Make your selections accordingly......of course you can add an external GPS to either......

[barnakiel]

Originally Posted by Hereweare

We are mainly coastal cruising around the gulf, the keys, and the bahamas. Our boat has no navigational system at this time and are looking at the different systems to install.

(...)

Why not keep it this way then?

If you do well without, why make life more complex?

If you must though, my vote goes for a nice depth instrument plus one or two tablets in wx proof sleeves.

Cheers,
b.

[kapnkarl]

I recently brought my new (to me) boat from Maine to NJ. Just prior to the trip, I bought a cellular iPad, loaded Navionics USA HD (for the nav capability) and Garmin Blue Chart Mobile, mostly for for Active Captain. The boat already had a PC with a nav system but it was a vintage system and the new iPad purchase was a backup. I did not purchase or activate a cellular plan on the iPad. The sole purpose of the cellular feature was to get the "built-in" antenna which allows you to pick up an accurate gps signal wherever you are on the planet... well, for me, it was Maine to NJ. The Navionics auto-route feature was worth its weight in gold! The Active Captain data was another wonderful thing to have. In any case, just trying to clear up any confusion (mine anyway) about the cellular feature of an iPad from a very basic perspective. You do not need a cellular plan and since the gps & antenna are internal, you only have to worry about keeping the iPad charged and not a USB gps puck or some other device.

[Va2shp]

Originally Posted by Sunsetrider

To be a bit more precise: All internet-connection-capable ipads have built in gps, so no external gps is needed. The gps in these ipads give full nav capability on their own without an internet connection. I do not even have a SIM card in mine.

All wifi-only ipads need an external gps doohicky like Badelf as they do not have an internal gps antenna.

Sorry I have an Internet connection-capable IPAD and the only time I have GPS info is when I am within Cell Tower. Please be carefull of what you say people life could be involved.

In order to get GPS info away from GPS tower I have to use an external GPS.

[kapnkarl]

To help clarify, it's not the internet connection capability that provides the gps connectivity that was the deciding factor for my purchase. It was the cellular capability. A cellular-capable iPad has an internal gps antenna which allows you to get position info whether you are connected to wifi, cell or nothing at all. I brought my boat down from Maine to NJ and had Navionics running the whole time providing nav info... and the iPad was not connected to anything. Yes, it had cellular capability but I didn't purchase a cellular plan of any kind and I did not have wifi connectivity either. All the cellular-capable iPad needs is battery power, nav software (e.g. Navionics, etc.) and a reasonable view of the sky to pick up gps signals. No cell plan, no wifi connectivity, no gps puck/dongle. I hope that helps clear up some of the confusion.

[nwdiver]

Originally Posted by Va2shp

Sorry I have an Internet connection-capable IPAD and the only time I have GPS info is when I am within Cell Tower. Please be carefull of what you say people life could be involved.

In order to get GPS info away from GPS tower I have to use an external GPS.

Older iPads with sims didn't have independent GPS, it sounds like you have this type....

[hellosailor]

When GSM cell phones with GPS receivers were being introduced all over the world, the carriers in the US came out with a better idea. "A-GPS" or Assisted GPS was claimed to be a way to make cheaper phones, because the phone only has the ability to receive the GPS signal, but not the ability to resolve the position. In order to do that, they need to use the carrier's network (at a monthly additional charge). A clever way to ban the normal phones, claim the customer is saving money, and extort it from them every month of they want the features that the rest of the world got for free.

I expect any iPad from that era would suffer from the same problem, whether the carrier still charged for A-GPS or gave it away. And when Samsung (in the US) came out with the first Galaxy phones (which were sold as "Captivate" and other names, not Galaxy named) the GPS software in those phones still required contact with an internet server for full position accuracy. Which was a nice concept--except Samsung had disabled the server that the phones were all programmed to connect with. (Nice folks.)

Since there is no such thing as a "GPS tower" and true GPS just relies on the satellite constellation, Va2 may be confusing some legacy issues with what the technology really is and does. Apple's mixes of products and features over the years have been rude surprises to many people. Such as the way they require manufacturers and programmers to pay extra for Bluetooth encryption chips/licenses, in order to get a BT *data* connection into those same devices. Apple says this is a security feature. Android users seem to have no issue with security and they stream BT data for free. (shrug)

[nwdiver]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

When GSM cell phones with GPS receivers were being introduced all over the world, the carriers in the US came out with a better idea. "A-GPS" or Assisted GPS was claimed to be a way to make cheaper phones, because the phone only has the ability to receive the GPS signal, but not the ability to resolve the position. In order to do that, they need to use the carrier's network (at a monthly additional charge). A clever way to ban the normal phones, claim the customer is saving money, and extort it from them every month of they want the features that the rest of the world got for free.

I expect any iPad from that era would suffer from the same problem, whether the carrier still charged for A-GPS or gave it away. And when Samsung (in the US) came out with the first Galaxy phones (which were sold as "Captivate" and other names, not Galaxy named) the GPS software in those phones still required contact with an internet server for full position accuracy. Which was a nice concept--except Samsung had disabled the server that the phones were all programmed to connect with. (Nice folks.)

Since there is no such thing as a "GPS tower" and true GPS just relies on the satellite constellation, Va2 may be confusing some legacy issues with what the technology really is and does. Apple's mixes of products and features over the years have been rude surprises to many people. Such as the way they require manufacturers and programmers to pay extra for Bluetooth encryption chips/licenses, in order to get a BT *data* connection into those same devices. Apple says this is a security feature. Android users seem to have no issue with security and they stream BT data for free. (shrug)

I think the a-gps was a tidbit thrown out to the app providers like Yelp and such to connect phone users to nearby commercial enterprises, worked for awhile then they realized real GPS was better for the driver of the Internet........Google and their mapping system, which is used by many apps........now other apps are using tablets capabilities, but you do pay a premium in the Apple world for unrestricted GPS......

[hellosailor]

"I think the a-gps was a tidbit thrown out to the app providers"
AFAIK, the A-GPS data was never given to anyone except the phone customer, and never retained by the cellular system. (Unless the phone was live and law enforcement was involved asking for location.)
I think the cellular industry just finally gave up on the game, because so many customers refused to pay $10/month for crippled GPS, and complained that their GPS couldn't work when they were...duh? In the woods or on the roads, out of cellular range? And they probably noticed the loud sniggles of laughter when they said "It will only work this way..." while the rest of the world just HAD FULL GPS.
If you've been using Android and keeping it updated...every app, and especially every Google app, has been getting more aggressive about 100% tracking of the customer. Google ties in push notices requesting the customer enable location tracking and history for all sorts of reasons in all sorts of places now, and last week they just made the news again, because they were TRACKING the cell towers you are connected to, even if you have "tracking" turned off. But they swear, that was just to enhance service...Sigh.

Better to use real marine navigation hardware, and just avoid the tar baby.

[Pizzazz]

Assisted GPS was a stop gap measure to help with the early phone's battery life - wifi chips we're easier to optimize for low power. Later, as faster, more capable and low power GPS solutions we're introduced, it became less relevant although even now it helps with the initial acquisition of the GPS signal.

Why did Apple go for GPS integration in the cellular chip I have no idea - may be to force upsell to customers. The issue has generated so much confusion and millions of internet posts that may be they regret it now.

[ArmyDaveNY]

Originally Posted by grantmc

My first thought would be to attend a training course on Coastal Navigation, and then select the gear armed with a little knowledge.
The brand/model doesn't make anyone a better navigator.

Learn how to navigate and orient with paper charts first.

Once you have the fundamentals down, then think about electronics. keep in mind that most people only use a small percentage of what the chart plotter can do.

I suggest you go to a marine chandlery and look at the different models and play with them. Often people buy a unit and then find out they don't like the menu or the interface. Also see if you can play with the units your friends and acquaintances have.

I sell this stuff and have a few observations. Most people buy a unit that if far more expensive than they need. If you insist upon buying the best, please call me!! A basic unit that you are comfortable with is far better than one with all the bells and whistles if you don't use all the bells and whistles. The more you have tied in to the chart plotter, the more there is to go wrong.

A rough guide is that you will spend as much on installation as you spend on the unit (and any add ons). I'm here in the north east so labour by you may be less.

Garmin are great units but they only take Garmin charts. I like Garmin but this is an issue for some. Raymarine, Furuno, Simrad, B &G, etc. are all good units and have similar features (as does the Garmin). They can also take different charts such as Lighthouse, Navionics, etc.

Raymarine are good but their tech support can be very difficult to reach.

The Garmin 44SV, 54SV, 74SV and 94SV have a great feature. With the push of one detent, you can remove them and bring them with you or lock them up. Never underestimate the power of two drunks and a screwdriver at three in the morning!!

Lots of people look at the screen from two or three feet away in the store. Be sure to look at it from the distance between where you will steer and where it will be mounted.

Be sure to consider the size of the chart plotter as well as the mounting and any pods that will cover it. It can be much larger and more difficult to get around once it is installed.

If this is your first chart plotter, buy a basic unit and learn how to use a chart plotter and learn its limitations before you spend thousands of a large and sophisticated unit that you may or may not like.

Good luck with what ever you decide. If you have specific questions please feel free to reach out to me.